I’m going for political suicide here but I’m willing to stand up with anybody else in this country who happens to agree with Sheik Hilali’s sentiments.
Not because of any emotional or religious point of view but from sheer logic. While men who want to assault women exist, there will be women who get assaulted. Unfortunately, how a woman dresses does affect her level of likeliness to be chosen. The subsequent reaction to this latest opportunity to get angry about something is the real lesson here.
Suzanne Bassette
National secretary, Australian Democrats
Clayfield, Qld
Jason brought this up on the open thread. Nothing much more to say, really.
Hat tip: CL
UPDATE: Suzanne Bassette has resigned her position, apparently in some distress - see here (link via Geoff Honnor). Rather than continue to attack her personally, I’d like to start a discussion that goes a bit further than the leftie-bashing one sees over at Tim Blair’s place when this sort of crap comes up. Basically, I’d like to know why.
168 Comments
I used to be a member of the UQ Democrats Club.Two years on UQ Union Council, too, as a Democrat.
Why I left the left, people.
Bye, bye democrats. Don Chipp has been left far behind.
In any case it is wrong. Rape is violence, not sex - has anyone shown this letter to CASA?
Where is Suzanne getting her information from?
I was trying to sort it out through pure introspection.
We may need to be more scientific then that.
Skeptic you in?
You get to wear a lot of different outfits on the upside?
Is the the dems first suicide bomber? - imploded by sheer logic.
She left the Dems this morning via this extraordinary missive posted on Andrew Bolt’s Hun Blog, of all places. It reminds me of Pauline Hanson’s “If you’re listening to this…” tape only less lucid.
“Dear All,
Since I am no longer (thank goodness yeeha) the national secretary of the Democrats, I can truly speak on my own behalf. I am no politician and have nothing to do with politics, but it is time people stood up in this country to the prevailing anger and vindictiveness that is a hallmark of our society now, on all sides.
We have the concept of freedom of speech and yet we work to stop it constantly. My own party, not realising it is dead and has no meaningful role for its existence, has turned this into a culture and become a rudderless ship in the process. So I figured if it was time to find something meaningful in life to do, I might as well leave by making a stand on something and I sure picked a sore wound to scratch.
In a political vaccuum of debate over what kind of positive country we want to head to, it’s pretty clear we are reflecting a world gone too far to one side and politics is ineffective to solve our problems. Next election you will have the same assortment to choice dismally from and next year you will still be here postulating and abusing each other and nothing will have changed unless you want it to. For goodness sake, all this going off and meanwhile the Murray is about to dry up, the environment is stuffed and one in 5 of us have a mental disorder of some sort.
Thank you everyone for saying what you think. Not that I necessarily agree with most of you, but you have the right to say it, just not to be so personal and abusive. I wonder how well you’d all take it when one day you step outside the prevailing group view on what is right or not and then find yourself being judged, abused and condemned. The only positive thing Australia can do for itself is to start saying enough is enough. This anger has to end and it takes each one of us to decide to say no to anger and realise we have to get on with each other. Sounds trite I know but as Blur said ‘there is no other way’.
Roger and out,
Me”
I saw and heard some whacky crap during my stint on the left, GMB, but this titbit - AFAICT - takes the biscuit.
Geoff, you got a link for that?
Good lord
sounds like a mid-life crisis.
Link is here:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/democrats_sheik_backer_was_right_that_was_indeed_political_suicide/
And here:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_enemy_of_my_enemy_democrats_defend_the_sheik/P90/
Thanks Geoff. Post has been updated. I just want to know where this stuff comes from.
No need to attack her personally but her comments are typical of the intellectual confusion of many. Criticising someone’s comments is not an ‘attack on free speech’ as she seems to imply.
As for the ‘why’, this is just a manifestation of the intellectual tensions of the left imploding inside someone’s head.
.
Why is this surprising. When have the modern left ever had a good idea. This typical thinking.
Free speech, anger, mental health, the evironment… linked together in a few neat paragraphs.
This typical thinking in the left these days.
Look at the clowns on the other thread trying to figure out how the speed/fine system can be used to milk more money.
don’t be surprised.
The Left of which I’m a member has always despised the Australian Democrats, and everything they stand for. Don’t try and pin this shit on us.
I’ll believe it when I see it here.
Hey, Tim Blair wrote us up as a lefty site! Fair suck of the sausage, Liam.
BTW, I don’t know what lefty club you belong to, and I don’t much care. If your variety of leftiness has particular insight into this issue, maybe you’d like to share it with us.
Laime
You may not like the Dems, but as usual you’re not really thinking too hard are you? The dems are essentially another leftist party. In certain ways they’re even more to the left than the ALP.
Would you please explain to us normal people how a lefty like you could say he despises the Dems?
that was ages ago, sl.
Liam doesn’t have a point. The reason for my jibe is that the Left has to decide when it will choose vigorous espousal of Enlightenment values (which need not translate into forcing them on everybody - criticising a frigging Sheikh isn’t an act of force) over cultural sensitivity.
Nor do I care which demi-doctrinal subdivision of libertarianism you and Joe pay freely contracted market-priced rent in, skepticlawyer. It’s sheer sophistry to sheet this home to the teddy-bear straw-Left that keeps you secure at night.
I spit on the views of this creep, and the views of Hilaly both, as do my comrades.
Go on. Make my day.
Well good for you Liam but I think you’re still being rather disingenuous about the internal contradictions within your camp. These contradictions are the reason your camp supports - dare I say it again - the equivalent of blasphemy laws.
Laime
Tell us why you hate the Dems? Seriously, i just don’t get it. And believe me, it ain’t trick question, Mr. Turtle Neck.
No, I’m asking a serious question.
You seem to have some insight into this issue, and I’d like to hear it. If you just wanted to come over here and troll, fine, but that’s not the impression I have of you.
What do you think of Jason’s comment? You may spit on these views, but why don’t others at least nominally on your ’side’? I know why some who are on my side don’t. They’re followers of imaginary friends who - in days gone by at least - espoused similar sentiments to Hilaly.
What gives?
And I think this entire post is the cheapest of cheap shots. You’re better than this, Jason, and so is this site.
Want me to quote Senator Ross Lightfoot, Bill Heffernan or Hugh Morgan as evidence of what all conservatives believe right of Phillip Adams? I’m happy to, and it’d be no more intellectual stretching than this insulting botch-job of a blog entry.
Come on - is this Left enough?
http://www.leftwrites.net/2006/11/02/ian-rintoul-on-women-and-islam/#more-430
Criticising Hilaly is just ‘playing the race card’? This is exactly what I’m talking about.
Isn’t David Marr the left’s new Bill Heffernan?
The camp supports the laws Jason for one reason and one reason alone. Votes. The muslim baslphemy laws were imposed as a way of getting the Muslim vote…. just like Keating allowed residence to this rancid little Egyptian…. votes.
They don’t give figgin shit about free speech, rights or anything else. They simply care about one thing. Votes=power
The new left would sell it’s soul to the devil if it meant more votes.
Happy to play dickhead poker, Jase and skeptic. I’ll see your damn-fool straight and see you a John Ray flush.
Here’s A Western Heart on Could The Sheik Be Right?
…
Seriously now: sexism is sexism. Misogyny is misogyny. Nobody should be protected from criticism.
And boy are they so friggin stupid over that that putrid site. Sparrow or who wrote that crap has yet to figure out the iefference between Indonesia and Saudi A.
We ought to send our bird of prey over there and capture Sparrow in mid flight….. by his claws.
Fine, Liam. So John Ray is the National Secretary of what, the Liberal party?
And seriously now - I can understand that you’d want to wash your hands of the Democrats but they are seen as a major left wing force in politics.
PS and let’s not even bring up George Galloway’s Respect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RESPECT_The_Unity_Coalition
I am well aware Liam that you do not share all these loopy opinions but you are missing the point. Groups like Respect are a natural logical consequence of some of the recent alliance building and evolution of thought that has gone on with the rise of identity politics.
Laime
You don’t know how to play poker otherwise you wouldn’t be raising with such an emepty hand. You could raise me one of those names and I will always have 20 Sparrows handy in the back pocket. You doofus.
Don’t go into the card counting routine. We can count better than you. In fact they’re falling out of our pockets, you nimbus.
Why do you hate the Dems Liame?
Skepticlawyer, I can’t answer for anyone else’s views but mine. Conflating my views and those of others with those of someone whose views are too bizarre to remain in the Democrats is hardly fair, though.
Jason, neither can I answer for who you see as a left wing force, or a feminist one.
Are uncompromising condemnations and furious agreement somehow not enough?
from John Jay Ray, anti-abortionista (sorry CL) and supporter of sundry imaginary friends. Oh, and he used to go to Nazi Party meetings, too - said they shared a common interest in baroque music.
As I said, I’m happy to admit these kind of people are at least nominally on ‘my side’, and to think publicly about why they may hold those views. Much of it is to do with a slavish and outmoded view of religion, which evidences itself in a desire to criticise the Hilalys of this world for characteristics they themselves exhibit.
There is also, I suspect - at least among the conservatives - a desire to see others live their lives in a patterned and predictable way. When individuals deviate from this pattern, they are subjected to controls of various kinds to restore the ‘pattern’. This manifests itself practically in the frenzied ‘laura norder’ campaigns one often sees around election time.
Without going into the sort of detail one would expect in a post, rather than a comment, I think that’s where this kind of crap comes from on the right.
I’m still keen to hear your insights on the left, Liam.
Liam who the hell is ‘conflating your views’? I refer you to my last comment. Why do you think this is about you as opposed to our having a discussion about tendencies within the Left?
I’m still keen to hear your insights on the left, Liam.
And why Turtle Neck hates “dem” Dems.
Com’on Laime. Just push down and hold your breath. Spit it out.
More on the mis-named Respect
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=63
Lefty Leunig!
Good Link Jase:
“One former ally in the Stop the War Coalition that the SWP had more luck in attracting to Respect is the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB), a rather conservative organisation with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian Islamist movement. This has resulted in one of the most bizarre pairings in recent British political history - a revolutionary Trotskyist organisation allying itself with a conservative Islamist one. It is this pairing that makes Respect’s position more than a little contradictory.”
It goes on to say that Osama B has been given the honorary chairmanship of the party and he’s expected to attend a few meetings in London this year. Uncle A from Iran is the party secretary.
To quote skepticlawyer on Bassette, from the post:
I suppose it *was* presumptuous of me to assume that she meant to refer to any kind of broader left wing political thinking, rather than the misguided freakery of one marginal ex-office-bearer in an increasingly irrelevant Party.
…
On the Democrats, since you all seem to be so keen to hear denunciations: they’re an unneeded, unwanted offshoot of the Liberal Party who ought to have stayed around in the 1970s. Simple.
Oh, and I saw Goodman Galloway with the Devil.
CL
He lied.
I emailed Leunig when the “artistic” competition was announced by the Iranian society of anti-semitic art suggesting he ought to enter the comp.
He told the ABC he received my email by citing my comment that he “was a natural” and could easily win it.
He then went on Denton and said he never uses computers.
My question is : how did he know about my email?
What a liar. He uses email like everyone else.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll leave the thread to you all. I’ve dhimmi duty to attend to.
I’ll just say that a few years ago I knew Michael Leunig personally. He was generous enough to gift me the four cartoons he did over my book controversy (even though I offered to pay).
Those four cartoons were exceptional. I don’t know where that Michael has gone, now.
The winners of that competition have been announced
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/more-anger-as-holocaust-cartoon-winners-unveiled/2006/11/02/1162339989025.html
First prize went to a Morrocan
Second prize went to a Frenchman and Brazilian
Laime
You know you hang round here because we’re right and this shit haunts every waking /sleeping hour. Come in through the door, bud, you don’t have to peer through the window.
Of cuurse we’re an attractive chick: thats why you’re always looking through the bedroom window. It’s a big tent Liame. And you can wear the turtle neck, but give up the beret.
The winning cartoon is here
shit
Leuig lost? Jeesh, I thought he’d scream it in.
He was so romtanic on Denton. i almost shed a tear. He talked about how he walks around his country garden….. and sometimes he can fee l the breath of God on his shoulder. How touching.
We also found out he doesn’t speak to any of his sibblings.
The truth is maybe they’re not speaking to him.
Come now, Mr Soon and SL, Bassette’s comment is neither reflective of the Democrats or the left. Nor is George Galloway or Leftwrites, for that matter.
Larvatus Prodeo is apparently Australia’s most read lefty blog and Phil’s post on Hilali was an emphatic criticism.
“Looking at the edited transcripts there is no way to spin this or hide inside the twin Burqa’s of misquote and misunderstood. We understand all too clearly what he’s saying, and it’s dark ages medieval stuff. He has a Sheiky grasp on Australian reality.
So, let me add my voice to the chorus and plurality of voices in condemning his remarks - obviously nothing but an unreserved apology without explanation is called for.”
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/10/27/a-sheiky-grasp-on-reality
The 155 comments left on that post were almost uniformly critical.
For every weird opinion voiced by a lefty on the whole Islamofascism issue there is at least one equally nutty opinion expressed by a righty. That includes Goward’s opinion that the shifty Sheikh should be deported- even though he is a citizen.
I know for a dead cert you’re not at all like that, Steve. But there are lefties who are, and righties who are too (which I tried to address above, for Liam’s benefit).
And I’d really like to know where it comes from.
The post’s intro link is “The New Left”. I would have thought that indicates she was differentiating this latest incarnation of Islamoleftism from an older left that would have - perhaps - monstered Hilali without qualification. Yes, I know “New Left” and “Old Left” have quasi-specific meanings in political historiography but I think we can safely say now that we now have a new (new?) New Left - let’s call it the Leunig Left.
This left has abandoned its longstanding contempt for religion (Eric Blair commends his readers’ “decorum” in a discussion of Islam happening over at LP); it has abandoned its commitment to transgressive art for art’s sake (hedging and dodging over the Danish cartoons); it has abandoned its uncompromising love of free speech (Benedict XVI deserved what he got); it has abandoned its vigorous and cross-culturally absolute feminism (a la Bassette and, formerly, Natasha Stott Despoja who donned a veil to demonstrate her solidarity with Islamic misogyny); it will now use homophobia to destroy its enemies - be they Republican email fetishists or Sydney talk-back kings; it will now express doubts about “foreign workers”.
This is the New Left and I hope you’re not part of it Liam because it’s the most despicable, cowardly political movement of this new century.
Maybe I should call it ‘the New (new) Left’, CL. Buggered if I know.
Should have read: “I would have thought that indicates SL was differentiating…”
Apologies for edit-generated rudeness, SL.
Munn
We all know that the reason you oppose fascist Islam. It’s because it threatens you as a gay person. Yes Munn, you have said this yourself in so many words.
That really doesn’t count, as Birdy and I feel that the reason is purely selfish… In other words it’s all about you.
Don’t get me wrong, even though your motives are purely selfish, as a libertarian I can relate to selfish motives, however not selectively so.
It’s interesting how you see the light when your own hide is threatened; yet display almost hysterical anger when some poor unsuspecting right-winger is talking about the benefits of labor reform. You’re so pathetic Munnchkin I could almost correctly label you a green party supporter. Ohh…. that’s right, you are.
A summary of the “party’s” manifesto is further up the thread. I was rolling on the floor in fits of laughter when I read it. Munnchkin, you take that swill seriously? Say it ain’t so bro. I’ll respect you in the morning.
Note to self…. This is gunna get Munnchkin’s racist flame off and going.
You big Mary.
CL,
This New Left thing, I would humbly suggest, is a figment of your imagination. Certainly none of the lefties in my network have any time for the likes of Hilali- and that includes fellow Greens members.
You have an unfortunate habit of stringing together a few factoids to develop grand but hollow theories.
As to SL’s question, I think a very warped and misguided version of “siding with the underdog” may explain Bassette’s coments.
“This is the New Left and I hope you’re not part of it Liam because it’s the most despicable, cowardly political movement of this new century.”
I disagree a little here, Cl, if you pardon me. But that lot hanging its shingle beside’s Stalin when he went with Hitler were an attractive bunch… NOT
The left always rises to the occasion when the opportunity presents itself. It never disappoints. It has Ted Kennedy, that lover of dead women, as one of its standard bearers.
That’s as good an explanation as I’ve heard, Steve. I think it probably accounts for a fair bit of Galloway and the Leftwrites crowd, too.
Mind you, in Galloway’s case, much is also attributable to sheer opportunism.
Munns comment 54
Of course. Bob Brown is far too busy saving the rain forrest in the Antarctic Peninsula to even know there is an issue with Islamic barbarians.
SL
“Mind you, in Galloway’s case, much is also attributable to sheer opportunism.”
You just defined the left…. Gorgeous George was simply acting in the best traditions.
JC,
I think I’ll just go back to my former policy of ignoring your barrage of insults. I’d prefer to have an intelligent conversation with grown ups, if you don’t mind.
Your childish abuse ruins almost every thread and does a disservice to this site- one that I regard as one of the best on the net.
Well yes JC, for weirdness anyway, the Hitler/Stalin pact is indeed comparable to the loose alliance between Islamic extremists and the Leunig Left.
Munn
Funny how you say you respect Catallaxy and feel it is one the best sites around yet you have expounded numerous hatefilled racist expletives on this very site directed towards me even going so far as to steal my identity when doing so.
So please spare us the swill. When you get on your hands and knees and apologise to Jase for doing that i will hold some back by maybe 20%.
Otherwise, i’ll take you for what you are. A low rent idividual with serious issues..
Don’t apolgise to me, as I couldn;t give a toss but you owe Jase a big apology you stupid green monster.
I try to keep my comments at a reasonable length, Steve, but I invariably make an effort to bring some examples and facts to the discussion. I’m also not averse to marshalling many facts and evidentiary links on occasion. The facts I’ve referred to above cannot be denied. They evidence a trend in left-wing praxis and thought that constitutes a betrayal of progressivism and only a fool would deny that. Your suggestion of hollowness is itself hollow and is, of course, born of your own confounded philosophical embarrassment.
Your own contribution to this debate so far consists of the following zinger of an argument: ’some of my best friends are Hilali critics’. Gee, that’s a slam dunk.
“confounded philosophical embarrassment”
Yes, I often experience that after midnight on a Friday. Blasted insomnia.
He tried the schtik when he was trying to inform us he is not a racist punk. yea, he’s eaten Asian food and orso bucco of course proving lowrent steve isn’t a racist punk. Just pathetic. That’s what passes for deep thought at Green Party meetings I’d guess.
It’s laughable isn’t it? “look girls, there’s 155 comments expressing criticism of the mad Eygption, which just proves the left is moderate”.
Where’s the bucket.
Munn’s argument about the underdog is interesting, but what a weird way to define an underdog, for we thought that the victims of rape (women as well as men) are true underdogs.
However if islamists are underdogs, I also agree entirely with CL. This love affair of the left with Islamists may indeed have sympathy for the underdog as an underlying motivation. But these good intentions are creating havoc and consequences are enormous. To an extent, the problem is not the Islamists as such, the problem is with westerners who at best are still in a state of denial. It is the west that allowed this islamist monster to flourish, and we urgently need to find a cure. CL is spot on.
It will wind up being self-fulfilling if young crackers think it gives them an exuse.
But is there any evidence for this?
Like evidence dating before the 90’s.
I just thought it was about targets of opportunity. The fellow thinks to himself he can do this thing and get away with it.
I wouldn’t trust the latest stats because it might have this horrific attitude incorporated into them. The data hopelessly buggered forever by the license that these crackers are giving their youngsters.
In the old days it probably just meant that the girl didn’t have to buy her own drinks.
But what gives? Where is the evidence for what these people are talking about?
Even tainted evidence would be nice.
The problem is that whilst LP may on this occasion condemn Hilaly they have yet to condemn the Islamic fundamentalism of Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, AQ and all the other criminal based brotherhoods that litter the place.
Mike Carlton is saying that much of media comments on Hilaly are “blatant racism and religious bigotry”, now LP can get stuck into Carlton for being a racist bigot.
The idea of siding with the underdog has some legs. Roger Sandall has some good stuff on this which I will try to find. The idea is that the left have identified various ‘underdogs’ who are supposed to be the hope of the world.
First it was the urban proletariat, but they just turned into bourgeoise instead of becoming the new dictators (under Red leadership).
Then it was the suffering masses of the Third World, but something went wrong there as well.
Then it became various other marginalised or oppressed groups - take your pick - women, gays, refugees.
And then the environment.
“Well yes JC, for weirdness anyway, the Hitler/Stalin pact is indeed comparable to the loose alliance between Islamic extremists and the Leunig Left.”
Well they both came out of the socialist church. They had been allies and remained allies until the day Hitler invaded.
But we might be onto it here. The Jhadists are utopian eschatologists. As are many of the hard leftists.
So they would be drawn together.
They both wish to rip down the old order. To get society to shed its skin.
No come on Liam. Lets here it. Don’t wimp out.
“The Left of which I’m a member has always despised the Australian Democrats, and everything they stand for. Don’t try and pin this shit on us.”
The Democrats are leftist themselves. So lets get your explanation.
Is it because they are generally non-Utopian-Eschatological leftists that you hate them.
You’re gutless Liam. You never explain yourself. Last time I tried to get some sort of answers out of you you found a ridiculous excuse and staged a walkout.
“The Left of which I’m a member has always despised the Australian Democrats, and everything they stand for….”
Why?
Where is the evidence for this?
That you’ve always hated them and everything they stood for?
she’s right…
she did go for political suicide…well done…just managed to cement the death of the democrats…
even the hilalalalalalalli guy himself is apologetic…whats with these idiots….
I must say Suzanne Bassette’s comments are extraordinary in that they actually agree with Hilaly.
This is actually past the leftwrites stuff which doesn’t actually agree with the sentiments but merely calls Howard a hypocrite and the attacks motivated by racism and being an excuse. I don’t agree with this position by the way but it is different from Suzanne Bassette’s position.
I think the main reason though that leads people on the left to this position is merely thinking the enemy of my enemy is my friend. If the rest of the right making points more in like with John Ray I think you’ld find Suzanne Bassette condemming the sexist remarks.
Just to be fair, I reproduce the following response from a left-leaning Howard hating friend when I sent her Bassette’s comments:
“Political suicide indeed. and she deserves a political Darwin award for removing herself from the political gene pool”
BTW Galloway is a despicable piece of shite but I think he does actually believe in what he says.
Currency, there’s a core of truth in what you’re saying. It’s true that amongst the broader Left there’s been a retreat from the dreams of universal Progress and Peace, moral cross-cultural absolute values, to be brought about into a paradise by the iron logic of the dialectic, on the bayonets of an armed, united working class, and imposed through revolution. Nowadays the cause of Labor is furthered by managerialist economists and lawyers who wouldn’t know their Third International from their 20th Party Congress. I can’t help but see that as a good thing.
No indeed, no-one’d ever accuse you of that
Now, as to the evidence presented here—Leunig and Bassette—neither of them are claimed by the Left, and have not been for a very long time. Leunig in particular suffered enormously, and rightly, for one particular cartoon of the early 1990s (before he went truly unhinged) attacking childcare. Bassette is having to leave the Democrats in disgrace; hardly evidence to her left-wing credentials.
One of the reasons I read Catallaxy is to learn about the great, enormous, unbridgeable gaps in the broad churches of the Right, about which I’m constantly learning. Why is there such an urge to conflate the Left into one amorphous mass, Democrats, Labor, and neo-Trotskiite Leftwrites all together?
Also, Currency there’s one very serious point of inconsistency in your argument: I’m not quite sure how you can both condemn the Left for pandering to multiculturalism, and condemn Labor and the trade union movement for fear-mongering about foreigners. (Though I think you’re wrong on both counts, naturally).
Surely it’s got to be one or the other?
The left fragmented when class was overtaken by gender, sexual preference, religion (incl. atheism as a reaction to religion) as points of fragmentation, compounding its failure to guarantee broad economic prosperity. The only people who regard leftism as worth criticising are those of us old enough to remember it as cohesive and potent.
He hasn’t apologised, he expressed regret that non-Muslims had gotten a hold of his speech.
Agree with the first part, as to the second I could only agree if I accepted situational ethics. The man’s a snake.
Well Liam, regarding conflation, I have allowed in my comment above that the Leunig Left can be differentiated from another left that isn’t Leunigian. That was the concession inhering in my delineation of a “New New New Left” - that there was/is another non Leunigian left.
I do think the Leunigians, however, are in the ascendant. Even Peter Garret issued a boilerplate critique of Ole Catmeat Hilali before thrusting out the now standard - in his case, alliteratively explained - BIG BUT: ‘his comments are appalling, women never responsible bla bla bla, BUT we Australians are kinda-sorta just as bad in the barrooms, bedrooms and boardrooms’.
Regarding multiculturalism and Labor Hansonism, I think the party is simply mixing up its signals and messages depending on the constituency being addressed. Labor’s King Gee class has never given a toss about multiculturalism but that isn’t to say the old Grasbian tradeoff isn’t worthwhile pursuing in certain electorates. How much chance do you think an Alan Carpenter would have surviving in a Sydney electorate after his declaration that Sandgropers might regret welcoming foreign workers into Western Australia?
Well I think the contradiction can be reconciled pretty well. Hark back to Whitlam’s ‘fucking Vietnamese balts’ comment and the fact that the strongest defenders of the Vietnamese boatpeople in those days came from the Right and included people like Santamaria, Gerard Henderson, Knopfelmacher, etc. And as I recall reading (not that I was around at the time), the unions were in a bit of a disquiet at the time.
It is a shame that Howard squandered all this political capital for the Right back in those days with his later comments on immigration but Howard really isn’t that smart anyway, his is a short term form of cunning.
Contrast this with the excuses and apologies for Islamic fundamentalism and bad behaviour among some refugee groups made by parts of the Left.
The fact is that certain sections of the Left (note that I am careful not to throw in everyone) who say there are into multiculturalism are really into refugees who can be clients of the State forever and more and who fit into a certain Rousseauan ‘noble savage’ mould i.e. those who equally hate ‘decadent capitalism’ and ‘Western values’ and those who prefer to make their living in the multicultural industry as ‘ethnic leaders’ and their assorted hangers on (e.g. Keysar Trad) rather than in more useful occupations.
Anti-communist refugees and those willing to work hard for low wages do not fit into these favoured categories.
Pretty good, I think, Currency, especially in Western Sydney.
Thank you for conceding my point on the plurality of leftyness. As to your Leunigistanians (though I think you’re wrong about their ascendancy, and there are good reasons why he lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere), I don’t see how you can have cause for complaint. Peter Garrett’s comments are a pretty good reflection of my views also.
1. Condemnation, specifically, of Hilaly,
2. Assertion that rape is always wrong, and
3. An extension of the analysis into a broader social critique. White men can rape.
And that’s hardly selling out feminism, universalism or the ideals of the Auld Left, for which young crusties like Andrew Elder are so nostalgic.
No point selling something out when you can’t even give it away these days. All those people who go on about the market Liam, they may be onto something!
Agreed on Howard in 87-88, Jason. That was a major head explosion - Asian immigration to this country has been a resounding and wonderful success. How he screwed up his radar on the ‘value’ of Asians to the Liberal Party like this remains amazing - just to look at it, for a moment, from the standpoint of electoral politics. At least Whitlam’s crass indifference to the Vietnamese was internally rational for a Laborite: he realised these people were not going to be good little bribe-able Grasbians. One of the interesting things about Labor’s new version of Hansonism is that criticism of it has to be outsourced to Greg Sheridan and a few other commentators. Howard knows he can’t go there girlfriend because of 87-88.
Liam, I think what you call the “extension of the analysis” - or what I call the BIG BUT (see also Mike Carlton) - actually has the effect of partially rehabilitating the culprit by affording his vile rhetoric the undeserved status of issue icebreaker. If Jack van Tongeren made some well-publicised remark about Aborigines being genetically stupid, would Garret, Fraser, Leunig and Carlton respond by saying “this is appalling and wrong BUT let’s face it, Aborigines aren’t doing well enough in our schools”? My guess is no, they wouldn’t.
“Why is there such an urge to conflate the Left into one amorphous mass, Democrats, Labor, and neo-Trotskiite Leftwrites all together?”
They are all (with the exception of the Labour right) nutballs Liam. Wrong about everything they believe in. Idiots impervious to reason and the facts of reality.
We might link them as well with any other mad bastards. They just come under the set of NUTBALLS and MOONBATS.
What distinguishing ideas do they have that aren’t plain wrong, silly, childish and ludicrous?
Who really cares what wing of bad-craziness they sit with. I would group them in the same anti-capitalist group as the jihadists. It matters not that they might eventually squabble with eachother once human freedom is destroyed.
They are all hateful and stupid. Its a bit of a specialist field to disaggregate such people when they have so many things in common on the deeper level.
GB
That’s about right. What’s amazing is the amount of damage they reap around the world.
Liame.
I never ever want to hear you talk about rights and freedoms until you apologise for supporting the Muslim Blasphemy laws. Until then, you have no right ever passing judgment on any issues again. If you can’t rally in favour of free speech- possibly the most important of all civil rights- you have no business taking positions on other issues.
would Garret, Fraser, Leunig and Carlton respond by saying “this is appalling and wrong BUT let’s face it, Aborigines aren’t doing well enough in our schools� My guess is no, they wouldn’t.
My guess is that yes, they would, and that they would attribute blame for that situation to white racist curricula/insufficient regard for Aboriginal cultural values being expressed as learning difficulties for Aboriginal children etc.
Thanks everyone for your insightful comments. I’ve been doing a bunch of other stuff today so haven’t checked in until now.
I’m glad no-one went off in a huff, because this has now turned into a really interesting thread, with lots of good ideas into the mix, and some more interesting comments (Andrew E & Rafe) too. Rafe, If you can come up with that stuff on the underdog, I’d be interested to read it, and then maybe get some thoughts from Andrew E on how that has undermined a left that was once ‘cohesive and potent’.
Related:
“And I don’t understand why the left aren’t upset about this. When it was just crazy people like Reagan and Thatcher who had nukes, the left thought Armageddon was coming in the next 48 hours. And now, it’s just perfectly sane chaps like Kim Jong Il and President Ahmadinejad who have them, the left couldn’t care less.”
- Mark Steyn
there is some method in that madness.
If either North Korea or Iran get nuclear weapons they can only use them defensively because their defence forces lack the resources to attack after using nuclear missiles.
In other words if either nation used nuclear weapons to attack another one they would be soon either a massive mushroom cloud or hit will an almighty number of conventional weapons.
Thus the nuclear weapons are a waste of money.
Both the USSR and the USA had the capacity to destroy the planet if one is secular minded.
Homer, for the 100th time, the value of nuclear weapons is NOT limited to their use in an actual nuclear exchange. An Iranian Bomb would increase Tehran’s conventional stranglehold in the region and make it untouchable whenever it masterminded or bankrolled further acts of terrorism. This is the proximate danger; the ultimate danger is a Middle East with a half-dozen countries acquiring nuclear weapons (read today’s news). This will be far more dangerous for the world than anything that happened during the Cold War between the US and USSR. There is no “method” to the left’s apathy about all this at all.
PS: Courtesy of the New York Times, we now know Saddam Hussein was also on the verge of nukes. And so ends the Iraq War debate. Bush won.
As usual the west never learns. Want to see a glimspe of hell. Thank God we live in far off Oz
Feast your eyes on this.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2436948,00.html
I then suggest we curse the side that wanted to go easy on Iran….. yep discussions certainly worked. The only thing left to do now is to make sure we spend every single dollar available of Missile defense.
Yep. That missile defense the left keeps telling us is too provocative.
“Thus the nuclear weapons are a waste of money.”
What is your reasoning here?
So it was all a waste of money. And the Soviet Union… always totally scraping about the place for some cash, spent this fortune on nuclear weapons…
But they wasted every dollar in your view right?
And there was no connection between these nukes and their record of success in extending their influence in the world every year right up until the emergence of Reagan..
Is that your view.
Don’t be a fucking idiot EP.
Retract this idiocy.
I’m getting fucking angry at you just for being such a stupid c-word fuckhead?
Why do you spew this nonsense you complete shithead?
Why?
What’s your fucking purpose?
I seriosuly don’t know how on earth we counter this. A major European city will have to be blown up before the other 50% of the Western electorate begin to see the danger signs.
Your message like fatfingers is always loud and clear from the point of view of consistent treason.
Don’t do a damn thing about the other guys weapons. They are useless….
or
Nothing we can do to improve our own situation can possibly help… Because we’ll always be outgunned ten to one.
or
We don’t need to do anything because no-one can reach us.
or
No-one would ever try to invade us or blow up a bomb in one of our cities since this would be irrational.
or
…………..
You see it doesn’t matter what you leftist swine say. Its always for the purpose of getting as many people as possible killed and destroying anything good in this world.
It doesn’t matter whether you guys contradict yourself on the same topic or yet even in the same fucking post.
You always get hold of the policy optionin the service of supporting mass murderers and the influence they have on us.
If there has been a recent terrorist attack you will say that you cannot fight terrorism. There is nothing you can do.
If there has not been a recent terrorist attack you will claim its all a beatup and its all the politics of fear.
Admit to be human filth EP.
You too fatfingers and Liam.
Just admit that you are in fact vermin.
Bird
Tone down your abuse of Homer and the others (and btw his name is Homer, not EP).
Homer for one is a not a commie, he is a conservative evangelical. He just says very silly things sometimes.
You’re a top bloke and very funny, Graeme, but do that again and you will get sooned. I was preparing the seasoning for the roast so didn’t get to see it in time.
Just sayin.
Isn’t it more the case that the left barracks for victim groups rather than the putative underdog? Or again, maybe that’s what changed about the left. They used to be for the underdog, but morphed (perhaps some time in the 80’s) into supporting the victim, then further morphed (IMHO) into self-identifying with the victim. Keith Windschuttle had a piece recently arguing that the only victim group really left for the left bourgeoisie to champion was themselves.
Bird has been right all along. This century is shaping up to be a bad one for the West if we don’t quickly get our act together. In fact it could fatal.
How to handle it: The Birds theory
1. Raise our tax-free threshold to $25,000 while reducing churning and waste by imposing a negative income tax.
2. Cut non-defense spending and push that amount into military spending as we should be working on the assumption there is a chance the US simply goes isolationist again. They do that, we‘re dead meat.
3. Use lots of the money diverted away from non military spending to finance to finance the best missile defense system possible….. and keep on improving it..
‘
If are unable to keep the lid on nukes in the Mid East, it’s gonna get real horrible.
Bird, Homer is a nice guy and means well. He doesn’t have an ounce of malice in him. Soon’s right, Homes just says silly things.
Birdy and CL and whomever.
Nukes are a waste of money because you can never use them.
morevoer once you have them someone else in the neighbourhoos gets them and it is nil all again.
They only stop nations invading or attacking you.
They have no advantage in offensive war situations.
You need a highly competent defence force to provide back up after the initial strike.
contrary to CL’s delusions Iraq never possessed this. Never looked like possessing the capability.
Their army. air force , navy were a joke.
Neither has Iran the capability of backing up any nuclear capacity.
As for North Korea…
perhaps I have have been too subtle I do not believe either in the past or in the future we would be allowed to destroy thisd planet .
Afterall we are only stewards.
Birdy ,
I will only respond if you use civil language.
engage in further swearing and I will ignore you.
Yes, Homer is a gentleman and a friend.
And I look forward to personally welcoming him from the banks of the Tiber - a poor Lambeth refugee - as he comes home to the One True Church.
So you and Homer are converting to libertarianism, CL?
Oh that’s very good CL. Even I (an atheist and skeptic and all) can appreciate that…
CL has catholic tastes and likes purple robes despite this he is one of the finest Howard/Bush apologists around at the moment despite his persistent and time consuming bludging by not writing on his very good blog!!!!!
I say for everyone in the blogosphere CL.
Get back to your blog and start writing
…contrary to CL’s delusions Iraq never possessed this. Never looked like possessing the capability.
Tell the New York Times! Dubya vindicated!
I’ve been considering it, Homer, but I actually think I forget how to drive it!
Adios for now, anyway, folks!
CL,
Iraq did not have the capability to followup any nuclear strike.
That is the point
“Birdy and CL and whomever.
Nukes are a waste of money because you can never use them.”
You idiot.
If you never have to use them how is THAT a waste of money?
Thats success?
So how is it a waste of money?
And who says you can never use them? What are you talking about. Just because in a **** world they never got used why is it that you think they won’t be used in a multi-nuclear world.
Dope.
“Neither has Iran the capability of backing up any nuclear capacity.”
Why are you saying this idiocy?
There is America. There people and their Iraqi charges being slaughtered on a daily basis with Irans assistance and they don’t even have the courage to TALK ABOUT IT because they don’t feel up to fighting back.
What will be the situation if they get nukes.
The left already alibied Saddam from 9/11 and he was just thought to have some chemical weapons and stuff.
If a nuke goes off in Sydney or Chicago whose to say they won’t simply blame it on some terrorist group again?
Nothing to see here.
No Middle Eastern terrorist regimes involved.
Actually they went further then that and retrospectively cleared Saddams regime of being a terrorist regime.
If there are 12 nuclear powers and a bomb goes off we might retaliate against the people who we think might have done it.
Or then again we might not.
But if there are 50 who do we retaliate against?
And since we cannot rightly retaliate how can we prevent it?
How can we prevent it particularly if the left is going to alibi any likely suspects?
We cannot.
We cannot therefore stop it from happening by the threat of retaliation.
So its obvious that we need to use pre-emption.
And its easy enough. You just bomb the facilities until they cannot produce the weapons.
What could be more simple then that?
I mean just how crazy are we?
When we could just bomb bomb bomb until the problem is solved and barely kill anyone.
homer
Not for nothing, but you should give it some hought before you put paw to keyboard.