Last weekend, Tehran played host to the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust. The gabfest saw anti-semites, cranks, fascists and, disturbingly, a few western academics from reasonably well credentialled universities - turn up to deny the Holocaust. Or minimise it. Or argue that it was a ‘European problem’ for which the 
Palestinians should not have to pay.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad opened proceedings, repeating his call - made at the earlier World without Zionism conference - for Israel to be ‘removed from history’s page’ or, more idiomatically, ‘wiped from the map’. The conference attendees included such luminaries as the Adelaide Institute’s Fredrick Toeben (nice pic there with Ahmadinanutjob, Fred) and ex-KKK frontman David Duke (pictured below delivering a paper).
One of the most persistent tropes of Holocaust denial is that Hitler never explicitly stated that he intended to exterminate Europe’s Jews, or that he never ordered it, or that he was some sort of mafia capo who let his underlings get away with too much. People who make these remarks have obviously never read this speech of Hitler’s.
But then, Ahmadinejad has said similar stuff, only to have it characterised as diplomatic hyperbole, or mere overstatement for dramatic effect. True, taking world leaders at their word can be risky - at least in democracies. However, I strongly suspect that taking nutjobs at their word - especially when they make threats like this - is probably a good idea. Given the opportunity, a nutjob will do as he said he’d do, and bugger the consequences.
The net effect of this awful hate-fest has been a fillip for Holocaust denial. The conference has been reported with the faux objectivity that characterises much MSM journalism, lending it a spurious credibility (and, to cap it off, the SMH makes Australia’s own nutty Fred look much better than he does in reality). The Iranians have also played up the fact that Holocaust denial is illegal in a plethora of countries, making Western governments (particularly in Europe) who supported the freedoms of a Danish newspaper to run its now infamous ‘Motoons’ look like hypocrites.
As someone who once had Fred Toeben follow me around a writers’ festival in Adelaide for some hours, tape recorder in hand, while he tried to trap me into saying something untoward about Jews, the Holocaust, crime in Hindley Street, the parking shortage in Adelaide’s city centre (he got pretty desperate after a while), I’m pleased to say that this is one area where my libertarianism has always been completely consistent.
Let the nutjobs speak. Let them disgrace themselves in the nation’s pubs and clubs. Let them be targets on The Chaser and pilloried in the same way as the worst sort of altmed quacks. Let them have their word and fade quietly into obscurity. Because right now, they can shake hands with a man who wants Israel to glow in the dark and enjoy a warped sort of martyrdom. And they get that unearned kudos simply because they can say to their Iranian hosts ‘I cannot say this at home’.
Just to drive my point home, I’ve included a photograph over the fold that explains far more eloquently than I ever could just what sort of regime we’re dealing with here, this hoster of international Judenhaas. I’ve put it over the fold because it’s singularly unpleasant viewing. But we need to be reminded, sometimes.
72 Comments
Finally got around to doing a decent post on this. It’s been brewing for a few days.
THIS IS WHAT WE’RE UP AGAINST.
This what the left should be speaking up about and has remained quiet for so long preferring to demonize western democrats around the world who they disagree with.
This is why I have learned to despise most though not all leftists.
No one should remain quiet to this.
This picture ought to fill every decent person with such anger that the rabid lunatics running that country ought to wake up and take fright.
This is why I think regime change is a necessary objective of the west.
They would do to Jews what they are doing to that woman without one second hesitation.
SL: “The conference has been reported with the faux objectivity that characterises much MSM journalism”
Not everyone, SL.
First words of SBS 6:30 news story on the conference: “Iran’s President was received with applause by the criminally convicted, the religiously extreme and the messengers of hate.”
The international porn channel doesn’t really count, ff, except when they’re beating Nine to the Ashes coverage. But still, it’s a small chink. The SMH piece I linked made me want to throw up.
SL
You think the scribes at the SMH don’t get it or is it the culture there?
In other words you think they are so thick that they have lost all moral anchor?
I couldn’t find a great deal to fault in the smh article (though it actually came from the London Sunday Telegraph). What was it that got your goat so much?
As an aside, one of my first forays into internet-based stoushing was with David Irving, back in high school (I had no idea who he was, had never heard of him, just thought he was a Nazi whack job). I happened upon his website and emailed him about how I thought he couldn’t possibly be serious, that the Holocaust was undeniable. We had a rather extensive email battle in which I (unsurprisingly) was unable to get him to see the error of his ways. He impressed me with his detailed knowledge of the era, but that was swamped by my incredulity at his ability to ignore basic facts, and the amazing amount of effort he dedicated to spinning irrelevancies into a superficially coherent defence of Holocaust denial.
Irvings no different from Lambert. Both the good and bad qualities of the two guys sound just the same as fatfingers describes it.
Hey can anyone verify that Lambert stayed in Sydney?
“Let the nutjobs speak. Let them disgrace themselves in the nation’s pubs and clubs. Let them be targets on The Chaser and pilloried in the same way as the worst sort of altmed quacks. ”
But skeptic. If they speak too much this will become the Prodeo standard position and Troppo will wind up with a sort of compromise lets-be-reasonable in-between nuanced position on these matters.
Thats how these people make up their minds about things. They don’t think. They just get pushed about by the bullshit momentum in the ether.
ff: I interviewed Irving during his libel trial. He is a very strange man who has wasted what is undoubtedly a superior intellect pursuing a chimera. In days gone by he had a quite a decent reputation as a historian, but his own nuttiness combined with the libel trial put paid to that.
He also has considerable wealth (he lives in one of the most exclusive parts of London, in an impressive Victorian pile). Somehow he managed to hang onto his property despite losing the libel action he brought, although I’m not sure what is happening now that he is in the slammer in Austria. His young daughter (who would be about 10 or 11 now) is presumably still in the UK.
GMB: you either have free speech, or you don’t. Dicking with it at the edges is like saying it’s possible to be ’slightly pergnant’. One of the problems we now have is that long years of illegality have given Holocaust deniers a cachet they shouldn’t otherwise enjoy.
In that sense, repealing these silly laws (and others like them, like Victoria’s racial vilification laws) would undoubtedly provide a burst of free publicity. Over time, however, these idiots would be seen for the charlatans they are.
A chimera?
A mythical creature; more here.
Or less mythically, one of these
Oh sure skeptic.
But thats not the issue. They are not over in Iran because its the last bastion of free speech.
I was just querying your optimism on this. They have the potential to influence the fascists at Prodeo.
Next thing you know polite people like (lets say) currency lad will be getting banned from Prodeo for being a conservative, or perhaps for just winning an argument.
Weather Girl would fit that the description. She seems to have already crossed over when she gave that pathetic excuse in supporting the Hez…. “they build cllinics”.
I have no doubt that if you dressed up Irving’s argument a little more you would have weather gorl supporting Hilters rise because of his support of medical facilities.
No doubt in my mind at all.
Hey why did the fascists over at Prodeo ban Currency Lad?
They had thits fiction going that they only censored people for bad language.
But that breaks down when i’m not around actually using bad language. Then the real motives come out.
But Currency Lad doesn’t go in for this sort of thing?
So what is their pretense now?
I know what a chimera is, even before double-checking on wikipedia. I was querying whether you actually meant a “monstrous creature made of the parts of multiple animals”. It doesn’t mean any old mythical entity, you realise. Hence the smiley.
The word is sometimes used in SL’s sense - and on reflection, loads of mythical entities are “monstrous creatures made of the parts of multiple animalsâ€. Gryphon, centaur, unicorn, minotaur etc etc.
Hey Fascist Dumb Bastard.
Can you tell me why Currency Lad got banned at Prodeo?
Knock it off, Graeme. Not on my thread, thanks.
And yes, I was using the word in the sense FDB proposes, but with a punning reference to something cobbled together from bits and bobs and singularly ugly.
Got nothing for you, Graeme.
Well, I think Bird is worse than a giant robot David Irving with laser beams coming out of its eyes.
Lambert.
You and David Irving are joined at the soul.
Consider your last post about Humphreys.
Humphreys is perfectly right.
But you decided to just lie about it.
Because you are a holocaust-denier-supporter.
It must be a serious character-disorder.
Because there are a lot of folks around like you.
Back on topic please people. Some thoughts on free speech would be nice.
Hey I know what holocaust-denier?
Sue me?
They will find I’m right.
They won’t find I’m wrong.
you were warned, Graeme.
You’re consigned to the moderation queue until you calm down.
SL,
You forgot to mention that some orthodox Jews also attended Ahmadinejad’s conference. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm
We live in a weird world.
There are lots of pics of them on the net, too, Steve - including of one of them exchanging a pretty full-on kiss with Ahmadinanutjob.
They belong to some obscure Orthodox group who believe that Israel shouldn’t exist as a ’secular’ entity (Zionism, at least in Herzl’s day, was militantly secular)
Munn
Every social setting has lunatics and savage extremists. Look at you for instance.
You’re quite happy to belong to a group that actually denies things like er, genetically modified food and wants to restrict the use of nuclear medicine.
So it’s not suprising that the Jewsish people would have a few nutters in their midst.
You would qualify as a nutjob in the same way as those idiots who attended
Surprised. No.
Crikey, what is it with everyone today? Collective panties seem to be in a bunch. Has Christmas shopping stressed people out?
Stay on topic please.
Speaking of bunched panties, SL, are you deleting comments over on the Pinochet thread?
Moving back to freedom to speech…
you either have free speech, or you don’t. Dicking with it at the edges is like saying it’s possible to be ’slightly pergnant’. One of the problems we now have is that long years of illegality have given Holocaust deniers a cachet they shouldn’t otherwise enjoy.
I’m not sure if this is true (to be honest - I’m not sure about how I feel about the issue), but surely there are some restrictions that a working society must impose on freedom of speech. The old shouting “fire” in a public theatre problem. And should we censor child porn??? Etc etc…
Ken
The american system is possibly the best working example of free speech. It basically allows lots of what we want and there is a good amount of case law that SL would know more about that supports the constitutional right.
When you get right down to it the most important element of free spech is the right of polictical descent. We have made curbs to that with the Bracks muslim blaspemy laws in Victoria for instance.
Shout in the public theatre? No that’s not free speech. that’s causing mayhem and is against the law.
Child porn? Hit the distributors and not the users.
Reason did a great piece on free speech some yars ago. I’ll try and get the link.
JC says:
“polictical descent”
Is this anything like political dissent?
“Child porn? Hit the distributors and not the users.”
No Joey. If you are using child pornography you belong in jail as well as the person who gave it to you. The distributors only exist because their sordid product is in demand.
Why does Israel of all countries deny the Armenian holocaust?
I can’t see why anyone denying the holocaust should be banned.
It is pretty easy to see they are nutcases
It is important that the Iranian leader keeps on banging on about “free speech” in this way. He is doing his country a big favour. He is either an entirely stupid totalitarian or in fact a very cunning man trying to liberate thinking within his nation.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20919335-12332,00.html
JC,
I agree that the US system is good. I do have a minor problem that it is too easy to defame public figures - not out of sympathy for said public figures but rather than it pushes good quality debate to one side. But even with that it certainly beats the stupid Victorian religious laws hands down.
I just disagreed (mildly) with SL’s proposition that free speech is an either/or thing. Judging that you would prevent people causing mayhem and arrest distributors of child porn, you would agree with this.
Ken
I think there is a good supreme court judgement about the issue of public figures and its basically a cost benefit analysis of the best outcome. They thought it is better to be on the open side than not.
In any event you can still sue in the US if someone says something that is clearly dishonest and meant to destroy ones reputation. It’s not totally open slather, I believe.
Munn
You have a point that is hard to argue with about child porn.
But it’s not the users who are doing most of the damage to the kid. I can’t see what immediate damage a user is causing to a child…. although I can see a good argument that looking at is in itself causing damage.
However the direct damage is being done by those taking the pics etc. Ht them as hard as we can.
I see the users as primarily very sick people who need help.
This is a great post, SL. I agree with your view that these people shouldn’t be censored; they should be free to say what they like and we should be free to ridicule the bejesus out of them.
Homer
Israel is doing it for reasons of power politics. It hasn’t denied the Armenian issue altogether. it doesn’t wish to discuss it when it it may hurt its only close Muslim ally- Turkey. I don’t know what the current status is.
This doesn’t make things right. Israel is doing the wrong thing here.
But what is important about this issue is that is not a Jewish issue. The holcaust is humanity’s issue….. primarily Europeans.
It belongs to all of us so we see it never happens again.
Great news from Victoria today, folks:
A very welcome blow against leftist fascism.
sorry mate but it is official policy to deny the Armenian holocaust. There other countries that do so.
Your theory does make sense.
Holocausts occur with a rapidity every century.
A great example of jusy how evil mankind can be,
CL
That is truly great , great news.
The friggin Victorian Supreme Court kicks arse, hey?
That really is fantastic news, C.L. I was wondering where that case was at.
Agreed. All the Mussies needed to do was fight fire with fire and pick out some choice passages from the Bible for ‘analysis’, but they wussed out and went crying to the law.
Sucked in, thin-skinned dorks!
Great news on the Catch the Fire case.
CL - emailed you something.
They are still not out of the woods. There will now be a retrial.
Andrew Bolt has some quotes from the judgement:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/christian_pastors_cleared_at_last/
Haven’t been around to delete anything, Fyodor. My last comment was at 1:47 (12:47 in Qld). I have been organising trial dates for next year (no small thing) and have had a couple of tricky calls to make.
As you may or may not be aware, I am a young lawyer. Young lawyers tend to work pretty decent hours - why I tend to go on blogging hiatus from time to time.
Thanks for that Catch the Fire link CL. I’ll read the judgment and try to do a decent post on it tonight. BTW Neave J is a law Goddess. She rocks.
I noticed she was one of the three. Did she write the judgement?
Very likely, although I haven’t read it yet and will spot her style if she has. She and Sackville J have saved generations of Property Law students from certain ruin in their Property Law: Cases and Materials, which is simply the best law textbook/casebook I have ever read.
It is so good I sat down and read a 1000 page law textbook - and retained it for the whole semester - at the beginning of my 2nd year. I did no further study that year and won the property law prize in both semesters.
Their Honours’ reasons are here.
Not read it all but by golly it is a dreadful piece of legislation. What on earth possessed the Vic govt to enact it?
Also, what does J.A. stand for? I thought it was a straight J. Appellate?
It can be Justice Associate, Justice of Appeal or Justice Appellate. The ‘Chief’ is always indicated as ‘P’, meaning ‘President, Court of Appeal’.
“Not read it all but by golly it is a dreadful piece of legislation. What on earth possessed the Vic govt to enact it?”
Votes, rob. Votes. Bracks and the socialist left saw an opportunity to suck up Muslims and went for it, seeing they have control of the upper house.
The lowlifes should have been thrown out on that piece of legislation alone.
Wha’s interesting, really interesting is that there was a Muslim bookstore selling books that did actually incited hatred of Jews.
It did promate the idea hat Jews were below human standard, dangerous and ought to be killed.
That never made it to the tribunal, of course.
It increasingly looks like it will become a dead letter law. Bracks is too gutless to do anything about it, as I think even they have begun to see that such a law is totally worthless.
“Why does Israel of all countries deny the Armenian holocaust?
I can’t see why anyone denying the holocaust should be banned.
It is pretty easy to see they are nutcases.”
Well its pretty obvious isn’t it Homer.
In that area of the World there are two inherently tough countries militarily. One because of their incredible cleverness and desperation.
And because of the heritage of daring war of movement bequeathed to them by a pathbreaking British general.
And another because some peoples really are more warlike then others and because these guys were part of Nato.
I speak of course of Israel and Turkey.
You hear rumours from time to time. Rumours that amount to racial predjudices.
And one is that Arabs are more then normally frightened of dogs and drowning.
…. That Arabs are frightened of dogs and drowning and ANGRY TURKS.
Now I don’t know about the first two predjudices but I believe the third.
Turkey combines military government with a functioning and long-standing democracy.
Now obviously we sympathise with the Armenians the Greeks and the Kurds who have been wronged by this country (the Kurdish stalinist militants I think were not blameless in this matter).
But for the most part since our blue-eyed boy took over I think its basically a good country and on the right track.
An dictator like Papa Assad or a Saudi billionaire handing cash to some guy who wants to murder Australians might laugh at the Americans depending on who the President is.
But the rain will be purple, and fall upward into the clouds before these guys will snicker in contempt at the Nation of Turkey.
Therefore Turkey is their second or third most important ally with only US ahead and Britain as rival for the spot.
Israel, geographically is amongst the most fragile nations on the planet.
If they have to deny the Armenian holocaust to stay on Turkey’s good side that’s a small price to pay.
However the rest of us should try and nudge the Turks to do the right thing. Not too fast and too hard because they are an important country to us too.
But we ought to be persistent for their own sakes.
And it ought not matter anyway. The holocaust happened prior to the Ataturk restoration.
Turkey, like the rest of us have to appreciate their capacity for wickedness and how important it is that they maintain their anti-theocratic biases that still win out to some extent in their political life.
And its not like we are all blameless either.
The Anglo-allies have the FDR/Stalin crimes of Dresden and Operation Keehaul to live down.
We don’t ban talking about it in our national law. But we don’t talk about it so much just the same.
Least not Keelhaul.
Thats great news CL.
A massive blow in favour of liberty in this country.
And other news to put folks in a good mood.
Jana Pittman just had a baby.
Congratulations Jana.
You’re a good girl and you’ve got great legs.
Incidentally its a massive blow in favour of liberty AS WELL AS in favour of us winning the war on terror ( ie the war against Utopian Eschatology in its Islamic/Islamic-Country-Socialist forms)
But for reasons that take a great deal of explaining.
Its a great whacking blow for our side of the war.
I kind of think you’re right here Bird. This legal win is a good message to be taken round the world.
And the Pittman news too.
Hey the better Americans sometimes look at Australia with great loyalty and wistfullness when they hear this sort of stuff.
This is what REAL diplomacy is all about. Stressing our righteousness to Americans who matter.
On American blogs I would be most fond of quoting Kim Beazley.
I’d sort of play down Latham lest they do a search. Like I’d say “the leader of our opposition” or something so his name wouldn’t be googled.
Actually I like Latham but this arse-licking comment and his talk about the President were wrong, stupid and too easy to make in the general climate of contempt.
They lacked courage.
But in any case I quoted the pair. And there was Latham saying that the election of a labour government would be the worst disaster for terrorism imagineable.
And then that good boy… That good big lad cheated by history…. He leaned forward to the microphone. He said something like…..
Terrorists are scum. They need to be hunted down and EXTERMINATED!!!!
It was a beautiful thing.
And I would explain that this was from our LEFT-WING PARTY.
It would make a stunning impression on the better Americans because their left-party contains good people. BUT AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL THERE WAS ONLY ONE.
The rest were border-line traitors and total nutballs.
I really dig those old-time BOVVER-BOY labour guys. You know the ones. Some of them pro-union. Now thats a dead end but there the guys I understand.
You know. The tough guys.
The big Taxi-driver and this bloke who you have a book written by at your pad.
Wait wait.
Its Jason that has a book by the righteous labour guy I’m thinking about.
If I knew that labour was dominated by these sorts of characters I’d join it in a shot.
I mean I think Howards a good man and true and the best of all possible Commanders-In-Cheif when the deal went down.
But how many others are there in the Liberal party like that.
The labour of twenty years ago was so strange. It had the best and the worst.
One part of Islamo-Phobia is to accuse the Iranian President Dr. Ahmadinejad of having said to wipe Israel off the map of the earth. This is a Jewish lie which is further propagandized by their blind gentile followers. Dr. P. H. McNally in his article
“Filthy Jewish Lies about Iran” has exposed this lie and you can read it on following web-site:
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Think/Iran_Lies.htm
Free Speech in Australia is in danger as seen here:
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/LEGAL2006/contents.htm
What rock did you crawl out from under, Fredar? The sun’s going down so you’d better get under there real qick.
I’m amazed this post of mine has emerged from the dark depths, JC. It’s so old that the server has lost the graphics (which is a pity). It looks like we have another ‘it’s all about context’ maven with an affectation for anglo-saxon variations on their name.
Dearie me, an Adelaide Institute troll?
Well yes, there’s that too, Jason. That’s why I didn’t want to let the comment out of moderation without your say-so.
That’s OK SL. It was in moderation because it was his first comment and I figured it would have been kinder not to let him out of moderation than to have him pecked to death by Bird, JC and all the regulars, so I opted for the less kind option.
Whilst Iran is back in the news, an interview with a former Iranian minister about Khomeini and his entourage of froggy sycophants
That’s a disturbing little linky, Rog. Love how those Froggy philosphers had disappeared so far up their own arses they couldn’t spot what a dill he was.