And I apologise for taking things off-topic.

Just sayin.

I use both sets of arguments and consider the two groups of people different only by time and place (European liberals (classical liberals) and American or Australian libertarians (libertarians)).

In fact, I think that the natural rights and utilitarian arguments are to sides of the same coin. Jason’s example of utility aggregation under slavery implictly accepts natural rights as a mechanism to maximise utility, but this utility maximisation only matters if we have them in the first place. Natural rights engender utility maximisation. But utility maximisation requires natural rights.

Interesting, but who cares?

It is not my opinion that Milton Friedman is a utilitarian. It’s a fact.

It is not my opinion that Milton Friedman described himself as a libertarian. It’s a fact.

Wow… a utilitarian libertiarn. So you’re weird theory is wrong.

And when the facts show you are wrong, you call them “opinions”. Cute. I wonder if you can treat gravity as an opinion and ignore that too.

I spent most of the time talking with people who disagree with me. I like that. What I don’t like it people who reject reality when it’s inconvenient.

Jason… Don was indeed saying something antithetical to me. He was saying that libertarians and classical liberals disagree on why they believe in small government. It’s simply not true and I can’t understand why otherwise intellegent people continue repeating it. Surely you already knew this if you had read what we’ve written. Which word didn’t you understand?

And what are you talking about with my religion? Are you saying that belief in small government is my religion… I would call that my “political philosophy”. Which is the same as yours. You can be a pretentious twat at times.

I have always been a utilitarian. How do you think I came to be a libertarian? You imply I was always a libertarian and use utilitarian arguments as cover. The truth (which you know) is that I started studying economics as a nationalistic religious conservative and was convinced by the arguments of Milton Friedman. I agree with David Friedman’s critique of natural rights arguments. You’re just being mindlessly and meaninglessly offensive and petty.

And Don… did you actually think I was going to strangle somebody or was really loading a gun? Wow. You poor thing. I thought it was fairly obvious that I was having a bit of fun, but if that went over your head then I guess I should remove rhetorical flourishes and just talk straight. Problem is you don’t seem to understand that either.

And good thing you didn’t address the point or you’d look silly.

And it wasn’t actually GBH that “blew my gasket”. I don’t expect any better from him. It was you chaps consistently repeating a blatent untruth. It is simply not true that libertarians use deontelogical arguments while classical liberals use utilitarian arguments. I don’t know why that fable is popular here, but it has no basis in reality.

I don’t expect the people here to be so proud of their stupidity so I decided it was time for a dramatic over-reaction in the hope that it might shake people out of their slumber. Guess it didn’t work.

Civility is a mask. I’m always curious about what I see when it slips.