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	<title>Comments on: Equity as Spontaneous Order: Evolution of Glosses on the Common Law</title>
	<atom:link href="http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers on law, legislation and liberty. And other stuff.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7713</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7713</guid>
		<description>Okay, closing the theatres I can sort of understand, but destroying peoples' opportunity to play the greatest and most subtle game devised by man really takes the bloody biscuit. It's the potention for an undefined outcome he didn't like, I'll bet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, closing the theatres I can sort of understand, but destroying peoples&#8217; opportunity to play the greatest and most subtle game devised by man really takes the bloody biscuit. It&#8217;s the potention for an undefined outcome he didn&#8217;t like, I&#8217;ll bet.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7712</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 02:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7712</guid>
		<description>Well that's just rude. I guess that's what being a Puritan is all about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well that&#8217;s just rude. I guess that&#8217;s what being a Puritan is all about.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe Champion</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7711</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe Champion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7711</guid>
		<description># 55 No wonder the Irish hated Cromwell, he banned Sunday cricket and in Ireland he had all the cricket bats and balls confiscated and burned by the common hangman.

http://www.the-rathouse.com/Revivalist4/cricketessay.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># 55 No wonder the Irish hated Cromwell, he banned Sunday cricket and in Ireland he had all the cricket bats and balls confiscated and burned by the common hangman.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.the-rathouse.com/Revivalist4/cricketessay.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.the-rathouse.com/Revivalist4/cricketessay.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7710</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7710</guid>
		<description>There are many circumstances in which I think Equity's intervention is appropriate. Take for example, the legal formalities required to create a proprietary interest. Doctrines such as &lt;i&gt;Walsh v Lonsdale&lt;/i&gt; enable an interest to be created in equity where not all the formalities have been completed in law. The parties essentially agreed but didn't use the right forms. The quid pro quo is that equitable proprietary interests are much easier to destroy than legal proprietary interests (and properly so, say I).

I also think Equity has had some very valuable additions to the development of the law generally. Take the trust: a recognition that legal ownership and beneficial ownership may reside in different persons.

There should be at least some kind of predictable guideline as to when equitable doctrines apply. I am a very big fan of litigants having a fair idea of what to expect if they go to court. As Peter Birks said, we don't want "palm tree justice" - whatever the judge thinks is right. This leads to idiosyncratic and unpredictable decisions. And potentially, unfair decisions - it all depends on what the bias of the particular judge is.

But that doesn't mean that a structure has to be totally rigid. A bit of flexibility is a good thing. There has to be a balance between certainty and having the capacity to recognise exceptional circumstances. I think that is where Equity is really valuable. I don't always agree with Equity's opinion of exceptional circumstances (eg, the &lt;i&gt;Yerkey v Jones&lt;/i&gt; principle, or the ridiculous decision of &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/1992/61.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Louth v Diprose&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;, where a solicitor was found to be vulnerable even though he knew perfectly well what he was doing). But I still think Equity has an important role to play. All systems have some notion that one can intervene in exceptional circumstances (even the European civil law, which uses notions of good faith in the way that Equity uses notions of unconscionability).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are many circumstances in which I think Equity&#8217;s intervention is appropriate. Take for example, the legal formalities required to create a proprietary interest. Doctrines such as <i>Walsh v Lonsdale</i> enable an interest to be created in equity where not all the formalities have been completed in law. The parties essentially agreed but didn&#8217;t use the right forms. The quid pro quo is that equitable proprietary interests are much easier to destroy than legal proprietary interests (and properly so, say I).</p>
<p>I also think Equity has had some very valuable additions to the development of the law generally. Take the trust: a recognition that legal ownership and beneficial ownership may reside in different persons.</p>
<p>There should be at least some kind of predictable guideline as to when equitable doctrines apply. I am a very big fan of litigants having a fair idea of what to expect if they go to court. As Peter Birks said, we don&#8217;t want &#8220;palm tree justice&#8221; - whatever the judge thinks is right. This leads to idiosyncratic and unpredictable decisions. And potentially, unfair decisions - it all depends on what the bias of the particular judge is.</p>
<p>But that doesn&#8217;t mean that a structure has to be totally rigid. A bit of flexibility is a good thing. There has to be a balance between certainty and having the capacity to recognise exceptional circumstances. I think that is where Equity is really valuable. I don&#8217;t always agree with Equity&#8217;s opinion of exceptional circumstances (eg, the <i>Yerkey v Jones</i> principle, or the ridiculous decision of <i><a href="http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/1992/61.html" rel="nofollow">Louth v Diprose</a></i>, where a solicitor was found to be vulnerable even though he knew perfectly well what he was doing). But I still think Equity has an important role to play. All systems have some notion that one can intervene in exceptional circumstances (even the European civil law, which uses notions of good faith in the way that Equity uses notions of unconscionability).</p>
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		<title>By: dover_beach</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7709</link>
		<dc:creator>dover_beach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7709</guid>
		<description>LE, thats exactly my point regarding equity. Equity was certainly given an institutional basis by the Court of Chancery, but it was always present as an idea since ancient Greece and Rome.

Aristotle intimates a problem with equity but he never really pursued it and that is that equity is not like law which is the application of known rules but is more like a decree. This might be the source of your dissatisifaction with its occasional application, that like a decree, it appears often to be capricious.

I will look at those cases. The sense I have from your and SL's comments is that it falls into the same category as BWS and by this I mean that they are ingenious attempts at avoiding what the law clearly obliges, not that they fall into the same legal category. BWS does this via expert testimony which more or less argues that battered women aren't intelligent agents while the two cases you sight do this by invoking a different idea of 'reasonableness' for women (having not read the cases I'm assuming it bears a similarity to what I've read elsewhere about feminist legal jurisprud excursions into contract law). In both cases different legal instruments are employed but for the same effect, which is to blunt the strictness of law. And this I think is the problem with equity, while it in some cases appears to supplement law, in others it may merely blunts its strictness, and in both cases the capriciousness of equity obscures the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LE, thats exactly my point regarding equity. Equity was certainly given an institutional basis by the Court of Chancery, but it was always present as an idea since ancient Greece and Rome.</p>
<p>Aristotle intimates a problem with equity but he never really pursued it and that is that equity is not like law which is the application of known rules but is more like a decree. This might be the source of your dissatisifaction with its occasional application, that like a decree, it appears often to be capricious.</p>
<p>I will look at those cases. The sense I have from your and SL&#8217;s comments is that it falls into the same category as BWS and by this I mean that they are ingenious attempts at avoiding what the law clearly obliges, not that they fall into the same legal category. BWS does this via expert testimony which more or less argues that battered women aren&#8217;t intelligent agents while the two cases you sight do this by invoking a different idea of &#8216;reasonableness&#8217; for women (having not read the cases I&#8217;m assuming it bears a similarity to what I&#8217;ve read elsewhere about feminist legal jurisprud excursions into contract law). In both cases different legal instruments are employed but for the same effect, which is to blunt the strictness of law. And this I think is the problem with equity, while it in some cases appears to supplement law, in others it may merely blunts its strictness, and in both cases the capriciousness of equity obscures the difference.</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7708</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7708</guid>
		<description>Actually, that's a good point LE. DB, hop onto Austlii and look up &lt;i&gt;Yerkey v Jones&lt;/i&gt; and then &lt;i&gt;Garcia&lt;/i&gt; (both easy searches). Both cases divide lawyers and jurisprudes terribly, and show where conservatives ('women are poor creatures who need protecting') and difference feminists ('essentialists') finish up meeting in the middle.

It's liberal feminists (like me and I assume LE) who always find both cases most disconcerting, as the rationale in both is remarkably similar to that motivating anti-discrimination law, except that (in addition) it pretends that women aren't free agents who can enter into contracts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, that&#8217;s a good point LE. DB, hop onto Austlii and look up <i>Yerkey v Jones</i> and then <i>Garcia</i> (both easy searches). Both cases divide lawyers and jurisprudes terribly, and show where conservatives (&#8217;women are poor creatures who need protecting&#8217;) and difference feminists (&#8217;essentialists&#8217;) finish up meeting in the middle.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s liberal feminists (like me and I assume LE) who always find both cases most disconcerting, as the rationale in both is remarkably similar to that motivating anti-discrimination law, except that (in addition) it pretends that women aren&#8217;t free agents who can enter into contracts.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7707</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7707</guid>
		<description>DB, I've always thought that Lord Ellesmere was taking a little from Aristotle. Let's compare and contrast.

Aristotle: Equity is â€œa rectification of law where the law falls short by reason of its universalityâ€. Lord Ellesmere: â€œThe cause why there is a Chancery is for that menâ€™s actions are so diverse and infinite that it is impossible to make any general law which may aptly meet with every particular act and not fail in some circumstance.â€

These principles do not say what the content of that rectification must be. So, although I love Equity, sometimes I disagree with the ways in which equity lawyers have intervened in the law. I still think it has a useful and important purpose though, even though some of the ways in which it has evolved may not be to my liking.

DB, perhaps a better example for your purposes would be the wives equity in &lt;i&gt;Yerkey v Jones&lt;/i&gt;. For the non-lawyers who are still interested and reading on, the principle is that a wife can set aside a guarantee if she can establish that she had a "lack of understanding" of the guarantee. Although I would call myself a "feminist", I don't like that wives equity. I was disappointed that the HC didn't overrule it in &lt;i&gt;Garcia&lt;/i&gt;. I think it's stereotypical. Much better to rely on some other kind of doctrine to intervene.

SL, I agree, Dworkin is a terrible writer. I must confess that I haven't read him for years, but I think I'm going to have to look at some of those questions in my thesis. I'm already looking at Aristotle.

Loughlan argues that equity has a "strong discretion" (more than one possible rule to apply) and common law has a "weak discretion" (only one rule to apply, but discretion in how to apply) using that thar Dworkin. I think that she overstates the reality somewhat. There's plenty of inflexibility in equity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DB, I&#8217;ve always thought that Lord Ellesmere was taking a little from Aristotle. Let&#8217;s compare and contrast.</p>
<p>Aristotle: Equity is â€œa rectification of law where the law falls short by reason of its universalityâ€. Lord Ellesmere: â€œThe cause why there is a Chancery is for that menâ€™s actions are so diverse and infinite that it is impossible to make any general law which may aptly meet with every particular act and not fail in some circumstance.â€</p>
<p>These principles do not say what the content of that rectification must be. So, although I love Equity, sometimes I disagree with the ways in which equity lawyers have intervened in the law. I still think it has a useful and important purpose though, even though some of the ways in which it has evolved may not be to my liking.</p>
<p>DB, perhaps a better example for your purposes would be the wives equity in <i>Yerkey v Jones</i>. For the non-lawyers who are still interested and reading on, the principle is that a wife can set aside a guarantee if she can establish that she had a &#8220;lack of understanding&#8221; of the guarantee. Although I would call myself a &#8220;feminist&#8221;, I don&#8217;t like that wives equity. I was disappointed that the HC didn&#8217;t overrule it in <i>Garcia</i>. I think it&#8217;s stereotypical. Much better to rely on some other kind of doctrine to intervene.</p>
<p>SL, I agree, Dworkin is a terrible writer. I must confess that I haven&#8217;t read him for years, but I think I&#8217;m going to have to look at some of those questions in my thesis. I&#8217;m already looking at Aristotle.</p>
<p>Loughlan argues that equity has a &#8220;strong discretion&#8221; (more than one possible rule to apply) and common law has a &#8220;weak discretion&#8221; (only one rule to apply, but discretion in how to apply) using that thar Dworkin. I think that she overstates the reality somewhat. There&#8217;s plenty of inflexibility in equity.</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7706</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7706</guid>
		<description>I'll be borrowing that one from the college library, I'm afraid - a mite too dear for me. Looks excellent, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll be borrowing that one from the college library, I&#8217;m afraid - a mite too dear for me. Looks excellent, though.</p>
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		<title>By: dover_beach</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7705</link>
		<dc:creator>dover_beach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7705</guid>
		<description>Regarding Dworkin, etc., can I heartily recommend again Shirley Letwin's On the History of the Idea of Law:

http://www.amazon.com/History-Idea-Shirley-Robin-Letwin/dp/0521854237/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-6142511-3032410?ie=UTF8&#38;s=books&#38;qid=1184235336&#38;sr=8-1

Yes, its horribly expensive, but a good academic library should have it. I'm so impressed by it I might just part with the requisite cash.

Apart from asides on equity, she devotes a complete chapter to Dworkin which is incredibly good. An excellent example of a ruthless academic mauling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding Dworkin, etc., can I heartily recommend again Shirley Letwin&#8217;s On the History of the Idea of Law:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/History-Idea-Shirley-Robin-Letwin/dp/0521854237/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-6142511-3032410?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1184235336&amp;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/History-Idea-Shirley-Robin-Letwin/dp/0521854237/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-6142511-3032410?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1184235336&amp;sr=8-1</a></p>
<p>Yes, its horribly expensive, but a good academic library should have it. I&#8217;m so impressed by it I might just part with the requisite cash.</p>
<p>Apart from asides on equity, she devotes a complete chapter to Dworkin which is incredibly good. An excellent example of a ruthless academic mauling.</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/equity-as-spontaneous-order-evolution-of-glosses-on-the-common-law/#comment-7704</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2998#comment-7704</guid>
		<description>No apology needed, DB - you've got me thinking about Dworkin again, something that's very useful and that I admit I've avoided in the past - for exactly the reason you and Hart enumerated: he's a terrible writer.

I also think your point about Dworkin calling 'policies' by the name 'principles' and then pretending that every hard case has a single right answer not referable to policy (except as articulated by the legislature) is bang on the money and as useful as Hart's point about the rules v principles 'distinction without a difference'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No apology needed, DB - you&#8217;ve got me thinking about Dworkin again, something that&#8217;s very useful and that I admit I&#8217;ve avoided in the past - for exactly the reason you and Hart enumerated: he&#8217;s a terrible writer.</p>
<p>I also think your point about Dworkin calling &#8216;policies&#8217; by the name &#8216;principles&#8217; and then pretending that every hard case has a single right answer not referable to policy (except as articulated by the legislature) is bang on the money and as useful as Hart&#8217;s point about the rules v principles &#8216;distinction without a difference&#8217;.</p>
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