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	<title>Comments on: Property and the body</title>
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	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/property-and-the-body/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers on law, legislation and liberty. And other stuff.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/property-and-the-body/#comment-11175</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 02:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/property-and-the-body/#comment-11175</guid>
		<description>Dave: that &lt;a href="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:FuaHKvnzCMpj9M:http://www.shakki.net/turnaukset/hof04/pics/mauri.jpg" rel="nofollow"&gt;Mauri Pekkarinen&lt;/a&gt; is one scary looking dude. I sure hope that's a toupee, not his real hair. Otherwise he's got some seriously weird follicle action happening.

Tony Mokbel might have been more convincing with a real hair wig instead of the &lt;a href="http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5516887,00.jpg" rel="nofollow"&gt;terrible toupee&lt;/a&gt; he was wearing when he was caught. Incidentally, it was being &lt;a href="http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,21870400-5005962,00.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;auctioned on E-Bay&lt;/a&gt;.

I have been thinking further and there &lt;i&gt;must&lt;/i&gt; be some kind of exception for hair. Otherwise how can people get hair extensions? I'm sure hair extensions are real hair.

Oanh: very interesting point! If you took a hair follicle, then you would be able to extract DNA from it, because the follicle is a cell containing DNA. If you cut the hair above the follicle, you would not be able to get information about the DNA.

But you can still get a lot of information out of cut hair. &lt;a href="http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/beethoven/hair/hairtestpc.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;A recent analysis&lt;/a&gt; of a lock of Beethoven's hair, discovered that he probably suffered from plumbism or lead poisoning.

So: definitely privacy issues there. What if a hairdresser stole a lock of hair from a celebrity, and sold it to the paparazzi who then analysed it and tried to establish whether that celebrity took drugs? Perhaps that's better off being dealt with by privacy laws.

Bruce: I like the idea of limiting patents over genetic sequences. The cell line issue is an interesting one, isn't it? One of the issues in the case was the fact that the cells were harmful and therefore they had to be excised from Moore to save his life. The cells are cultivated merely to produce a particular protein, and could not develop into an independent living organism. In fact, they would die unless the scientists kept culturing them. Also raises interesting questions of what "living" means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: that <a href="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:FuaHKvnzCMpj9M:http://www.shakki.net/turnaukset/hof04/pics/mauri.jpg" rel="nofollow">Mauri Pekkarinen</a> is one scary looking dude. I sure hope that&#8217;s a toupee, not his real hair. Otherwise he&#8217;s got some seriously weird follicle action happening.</p>
<p>Tony Mokbel might have been more convincing with a real hair wig instead of the <a href="http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5516887,00.jpg" rel="nofollow">terrible toupee</a> he was wearing when he was caught. Incidentally, it was being <a href="http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,21870400-5005962,00.html" rel="nofollow">auctioned on E-Bay</a>.</p>
<p>I have been thinking further and there <i>must</i> be some kind of exception for hair. Otherwise how can people get hair extensions? I&#8217;m sure hair extensions are real hair.</p>
<p>Oanh: very interesting point! If you took a hair follicle, then you would be able to extract DNA from it, because the follicle is a cell containing DNA. If you cut the hair above the follicle, you would not be able to get information about the DNA.</p>
<p>But you can still get a lot of information out of cut hair. <a href="http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/beethoven/hair/hairtestpc.html" rel="nofollow">A recent analysis</a> of a lock of Beethoven&#8217;s hair, discovered that he probably suffered from plumbism or lead poisoning.</p>
<p>So: definitely privacy issues there. What if a hairdresser stole a lock of hair from a celebrity, and sold it to the paparazzi who then analysed it and tried to establish whether that celebrity took drugs? Perhaps that&#8217;s better off being dealt with by privacy laws.</p>
<p>Bruce: I like the idea of limiting patents over genetic sequences. The cell line issue is an interesting one, isn&#8217;t it? One of the issues in the case was the fact that the cells were harmful and therefore they had to be excised from Moore to save his life. The cells are cultivated merely to produce a particular protein, and could not develop into an independent living organism. In fact, they would die unless the scientists kept culturing them. Also raises interesting questions of what &#8220;living&#8221; means.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link, (Black) Friday 13 July</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/property-and-the-body/#comment-11174</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link, (Black) Friday 13 July</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/property-and-the-body/#comment-11174</guid>
		<description>[...] in body parts? You better believe it, in this wry piece by Legal Eagle (and the Dave Bath post on which she riffs).   Enter your email address to receive Missing Link in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in body parts? You better believe it, in this wry piece by Legal Eagle (and the Dave Bath post on which she riffs).   Enter your email address to receive Missing Link in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/property-and-the-body/#comment-11173</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/property-and-the-body/#comment-11173</guid>
		<description>I've always wanted to see an "individual sequence" copyright act. One where identifying or novel sequences could only be copied/used for legitimate purposes unless with the copyright holder's permission.

Don't know how I'd go about explaining a cancerous growth though... It's novel, but novel in the context I was thinking was of a genotypic novelty for the whole organism, rather than a growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always wanted to see an &#8220;individual sequence&#8221; copyright act. One where identifying or novel sequences could only be copied/used for legitimate purposes unless with the copyright holder&#8217;s permission.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t know how I&#8217;d go about explaining a cancerous growth though&#8230; It&#8217;s novel, but novel in the context I was thinking was of a genotypic novelty for the whole organism, rather than a growth.</p>
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		<title>By: Oanh</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/property-and-the-body/#comment-11172</link>
		<dc:creator>Oanh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/property-and-the-body/#comment-11172</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the relevant distinction is not death of the cell, but more to do with what can be considered more intrinsic to a person's being.  And either criteria needs serious analysis, given what hair and nails can, with the assistance of current technology, actually reveal about an individual.

I thought this might interest you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/nuclear/article/0,,2123009,00.html

Almost the plot for a horror movie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the relevant distinction is not death of the cell, but more to do with what can be considered more intrinsic to a person&#8217;s being.  And either criteria needs serious analysis, given what hair and nails can, with the assistance of current technology, actually reveal about an individual.</p>
<p>I thought this might interest you:<br />
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/nuclear/article/0,,2123009,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/nuclear/article/0,,2123009,00.html</a></p>
<p>Almost the plot for a horror movie.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Bath</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/property-and-the-body/#comment-11170</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Bath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 06:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/property-and-the-body/#comment-11170</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Therefore even the sale of human hair or fingernails would not be legal in this State, unless a Minister was prepared to licence someone to purchase hair.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Are we discriminating against chemo/alopecia patients and condemning them to spot-them-a-mile-off rugs?
Does the EU charter (not enforceable, but the Nordics are usually ahead of the game) explain the unfortunate Finnish Trade Minister, Mauri Pekkarinen?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Therefore even the sale of human hair or fingernails would not be legal in this State, unless a Minister was prepared to licence someone to purchase hair.</p></blockquote>
<p>Are we discriminating against chemo/alopecia patients and condemning them to spot-them-a-mile-off rugs?<br />
Does the EU charter (not enforceable, but the Nordics are usually ahead of the game) explain the unfortunate Finnish Trade Minister, Mauri Pekkarinen?</p>
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		<title>By: cynic</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/property-and-the-body/#comment-11169</link>
		<dc:creator>cynic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/property-and-the-body/#comment-11169</guid>
		<description>this from mumble.com.au
"July 11 (pm) Casualties in the Newspoll wars
I think Dennis Shanahan wrote this this morning (as opposed to yesterday). The "PhD" mentions refer, I believe, to me.
A courtesy call from Editor-in-Chief Chris Mitchell this morning informed me that the paper is going to "go" Charles Richardson (from Crikey) and me tomorrow.
Chris said by all means criticise the paper, but my "personal" attacks on Dennis had gone too far, and the paper will now go me "personally".
No, I'm not making this up.
If they only get as personal as I get with Dennis, then it should be tame, as I don't believe I've ever criticised anything other than his writing.
And to think I described Dennis, in a chapter in a book being launched this month, as (with no sarcasm) "a fine journalist".
All very strange. And - I'd be lying if I didn't admit - a little stomach-churning."
J-HO has got to go NOW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this from mumble.com.au<br />
&#8220;July 11 (pm) Casualties in the Newspoll wars<br />
I think Dennis Shanahan wrote this this morning (as opposed to yesterday). The &#8220;PhD&#8221; mentions refer, I believe, to me.<br />
A courtesy call from Editor-in-Chief Chris Mitchell this morning informed me that the paper is going to &#8220;go&#8221; Charles Richardson (from Crikey) and me tomorrow.<br />
Chris said by all means criticise the paper, but my &#8220;personal&#8221; attacks on Dennis had gone too far, and the paper will now go me &#8220;personally&#8221;.<br />
No, I&#8217;m not making this up.<br />
If they only get as personal as I get with Dennis, then it should be tame, as I don&#8217;t believe I&#8217;ve ever criticised anything other than his writing.<br />
And to think I described Dennis, in a chapter in a book being launched this month, as (with no sarcasm) &#8220;a fine journalist&#8221;.<br />
All very strange. And - I&#8217;d be lying if I didn&#8217;t admit - a little stomach-churning.&#8221;<br />
J-HO has got to go NOW</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Bath</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2007/07/property-and-the-body/#comment-11171</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Bath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/property-and-the-body/#comment-11171</guid>
		<description>LE said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;It worries me that companies might seek to patent people’s DNA and use the patent to monopolise the pharmaceutical benefits which might be derived from it. Sound neurotic and far-fetched?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'll cut and paste from a response back on my original post:

Well, assuming your DNA is pretty close to everyone else’s, the Darth Ventners of this world - and the others who are just pillaging the results of the Human Genome Project - already have. What I particularly object to here is the pathetic way patents are being issued for sequences and the proteins that are derived from them when the pirates don’t even know what they do. If anything is the common property of all humanity, it’s our DNA sequences.

Anyway, patents are supposed to be for inventions, not discoveries.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And as for stupid patents: you've heard about how a Melbourne lawyer was awarded an "Australian Innovation Patent" for the &lt;em&gt;wheel&lt;/em&gt; (actually a "Circular Transportation Facilitation Device").</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LE said:</p>
<blockquote><p>It worries me that companies might seek to patent people’s DNA and use the patent to monopolise the pharmaceutical benefits which might be derived from it. Sound neurotic and far-fetched?</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ll cut and paste from a response back on my original post:</p>
<p>Well, assuming your DNA is pretty close to everyone else’s, the Darth Ventners of this world - and the others who are just pillaging the results of the Human Genome Project - already have. What I particularly object to here is the pathetic way patents are being issued for sequences and the proteins that are derived from them when the pirates don’t even know what they do. If anything is the common property of all humanity, it’s our DNA sequences.</p>
<p>Anyway, patents are supposed to be for inventions, not discoveries.</p>
<p>And as for stupid patents: you&#8217;ve heard about how a Melbourne lawyer was awarded an &#8220;Australian Innovation Patent&#8221; for the <em>wheel</em> (actually a &#8220;Circular Transportation Facilitation Device&#8221;).</p>
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