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	<title>Comments on: Rights or wrong?</title>
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	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers and a larrikin on life, law and liberty.</description>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22202</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 04:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ve been reading about &quot;human rights&quot; like a mad person for a week now. WOW; very interesting stuff, but I am now even more in opposition to it. It is incoherent, socially-corrosive, and the nutters who have turned it into a religion, well they&#039;re just nutters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been reading about &#8220;human rights&#8221; like a mad person for a week now. WOW; very interesting stuff, but I am now even more in opposition to it. It is incoherent, socially-corrosive, and the nutters who have turned it into a religion, well they&#8217;re just nutters.</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22199</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 04:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>SL

Thanks a bundle for the advice. I have only included Hayek in a side-argument about the loss of data in an increasingly command economy. From that, I am then trying to work in (what I think is analogous) is Waldon&#039;s fear that the more final decision-making power the courts take, the less there is for polity. The impact on the heavily judicially reviewed is similar to the polity that is heavily taxed and centrally-planned - learned helplessness, inefficiency, poverty, and misery.

Cheery huh?    :).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SL</p>
<p>Thanks a bundle for the advice. I have only included Hayek in a side-argument about the loss of data in an increasingly command economy. From that, I am then trying to work in (what I think is analogous) is Waldon&#8217;s fear that the more final decision-making power the courts take, the less there is for polity. The impact on the heavily judicially reviewed is similar to the polity that is heavily taxed and centrally-planned &#8211; learned helplessness, inefficiency, poverty, and misery.</p>
<p>Cheery huh?    <img src='http://skepticlawyer.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22149</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Be careful trying to recruit Hayek into an anti-judicial review position, JG. Not only does he praise the US system mightily in &lt;i&gt;Constitution of Liberty&lt;/i&gt;, but he spends the first chapter of Vol III of &lt;i&gt;Law, Legislation and Liberty&lt;/i&gt; trashing the UK&#039;s doctrine of &#039;parliamentary sovereignty&#039; -- even going so far as to call it &#039;pernicious&#039;. 

Remember that classical liberals/libertarians are often suspicious of majoritarian impulses, and so spend a great deal of time trying to confine at least some aspects of democracy. Someone like Nozick expects not only the constitution but the whole state &lt;i&gt;apparat&lt;/i&gt; to be facially neutral; Hayek is a bit more relaxed, but expects a neutral constitution to reign in the contested policy realm of the the legislature. Rawls is similar to Hayek on this point, too.

That said, Hayek&#039;s particular problem with Bills of Rights -- as opposed to Constitutions and judicial review -- is outlined on p162ff of &lt;em&gt;Constitution of Liberty&lt;/em&gt; (Ch12 again, in the Routledge edition).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Be careful trying to recruit Hayek into an anti-judicial review position, JG. Not only does he praise the US system mightily in <i>Constitution of Liberty</i>, but he spends the first chapter of Vol III of <i>Law, Legislation and Liberty</i> trashing the UK&#8217;s doctrine of &#8216;parliamentary sovereignty&#8217; &#8212; even going so far as to call it &#8216;pernicious&#8217;. </p>
<p>Remember that classical liberals/libertarians are often suspicious of majoritarian impulses, and so spend a great deal of time trying to confine at least some aspects of democracy. Someone like Nozick expects not only the constitution but the whole state <i>apparat</i> to be facially neutral; Hayek is a bit more relaxed, but expects a neutral constitution to reign in the contested policy realm of the the legislature. Rawls is similar to Hayek on this point, too.</p>
<p>That said, Hayek&#8217;s particular problem with Bills of Rights &#8212; as opposed to Constitutions and judicial review &#8212; is outlined on p162ff of <em>Constitution of Liberty</em> (Ch12 again, in the Routledge edition).</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22141</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks SL. I was also womdering about  his position on a charter vs. constitutional entrenchment. One solution I am kleaning towards is that he would not be very optimistic for a charter that was suddenly parachuted into Australia that had been entirely been cooked up by non-Australianms in Geneva. What do you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks SL. I was also womdering about  his position on a charter vs. constitutional entrenchment. One solution I am kleaning towards is that he would not be very optimistic for a charter that was suddenly parachuted into Australia that had been entirely been cooked up by non-Australianms in Geneva. What do you think?</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22138</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Waldron -- like Allan -- is an opponent of judicial review, although I&#039;m not sure what his position is on Charters of Rights that are enacted in the usual way as ordinary acts of parliament. He is on the classical liberal end of liberal jurisprudence in the US (he&#039;s written extensively on Locke), and is a public intellectual in the best sense of the word (in the double sense of both true and faithful). 

His opposition to judicial review is based on the idea that it is anti-democratic, and that if the people are to elect the government, then they should not be thwarted by the courts. That said, he has been an outspoken opponent of torture (so he&#039;s probably on the SCOTUS&#039; side on that particular debate). He&#039;s debated John Yoo -- an influential contemporary Schmittian -- on the torture issue (I think the debate is online somewhere, too). 

I discussed the problem of democratic deficit in my big abortion post. &lt;i&gt;Roe v Wade&lt;/i&gt; usurped the role of the legislature, and in many ways made the abortion debate far more bitter and divisive in the US than elsewhere, where the issue was resolved by parliament. The usurpation can go the other way politically, too - &lt;i&gt;Bush v Gore&lt;/i&gt; also amounted to something of a usurpation, and in terms of justice (but not, obviously, efficiency), the election should probably have been held over again.

Traditionally, the UK has not experienced &#039;judicial review&#039; in the American sense, due to the doctrine of parliamentary supremacy. That said, if you look up the two &lt;i&gt;Factortame&lt;/i&gt; decisions, you&#039;ll see the HofL ruling that EU law is superior to municipal law in areas where it is competent. Even so, the courts are supposed to issue &#039;certificates of incompatibility&#039; and bunt the law back to parliament. They can&#039;t do the Australian and American thing and simply strike down the law (the SCOTUS often adds detailed suggestions as to how to go about doing some redrafting to make the law constitutional).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Waldron &#8212; like Allan &#8212; is an opponent of judicial review, although I&#8217;m not sure what his position is on Charters of Rights that are enacted in the usual way as ordinary acts of parliament. He is on the classical liberal end of liberal jurisprudence in the US (he&#8217;s written extensively on Locke), and is a public intellectual in the best sense of the word (in the double sense of both true and faithful). </p>
<p>His opposition to judicial review is based on the idea that it is anti-democratic, and that if the people are to elect the government, then they should not be thwarted by the courts. That said, he has been an outspoken opponent of torture (so he&#8217;s probably on the SCOTUS&#8217; side on that particular debate). He&#8217;s debated John Yoo &#8212; an influential contemporary Schmittian &#8212; on the torture issue (I think the debate is online somewhere, too). </p>
<p>I discussed the problem of democratic deficit in my big abortion post. <i>Roe v Wade</i> usurped the role of the legislature, and in many ways made the abortion debate far more bitter and divisive in the US than elsewhere, where the issue was resolved by parliament. The usurpation can go the other way politically, too &#8211; <i>Bush v Gore</i> also amounted to something of a usurpation, and in terms of justice (but not, obviously, efficiency), the election should probably have been held over again.</p>
<p>Traditionally, the UK has not experienced &#8216;judicial review&#8217; in the American sense, due to the doctrine of parliamentary supremacy. That said, if you look up the two <i>Factortame</i> decisions, you&#8217;ll see the HofL ruling that EU law is superior to municipal law in areas where it is competent. Even so, the courts are supposed to issue &#8216;certificates of incompatibility&#8217; and bunt the law back to parliament. They can&#8217;t do the Australian and American thing and simply strike down the law (the SCOTUS often adds detailed suggestions as to how to go about doing some redrafting to make the law constitutional).</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22136</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>SL/LE

I have just discovered Jeremy Waldron, and am getting a real frssion reading him. Is he any good? Human Rights as &quot;Nonsense Upon Stilts&quot; is priceless, but SOOOOO true!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SL/LE</p>
<p>I have just discovered Jeremy Waldron, and am getting a real frssion reading him. Is he any good? Human Rights as &#8220;Nonsense Upon Stilts&#8221; is priceless, but SOOOOO true!</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22044</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights now redefines freedom of religion to include freedom from “defamation of religions” by insisting debate and commentary about religion must be “responsible”. &lt;/i&gt;

Hey I can live with that. 

I mean when I say that religion precipitates hatred, bigotry and medieval torture down on everyone it&#039;s not defamatory. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights now redefines freedom of religion to include freedom from “defamation of religions” by insisting debate and commentary about religion must be “responsible”. </i></p>
<p>Hey I can live with that. </p>
<p>I mean when I say that religion precipitates hatred, bigotry and medieval torture down on everyone it&#8217;s not defamatory. <img src='http://skepticlawyer.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22043</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;I am going to ride them hard about the moral/political/legal authority of the UNGA to make these decsions for AUSTRALIANS.&lt;/i&gt;

Shame on you.

Any criticism of the UN is the same as blatant support for bigotrty and hatred and medieval torture. The UN can and will make all the necessary motions to the sub-committees for the estbalishment of protocols outlining the speaking terms negotiating the working paper to form an associated panel that will outline the pertinent issues involved in, um, what were we talking about again.

Anyway. Human rights, the UN. What&#039;s wrong with that Colonle Quaddafi heading it up. He always been big on human rights don&#039;t you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I am going to ride them hard about the moral/political/legal authority of the UNGA to make these decsions for AUSTRALIANS.</i></p>
<p>Shame on you.</p>
<p>Any criticism of the UN is the same as blatant support for bigotrty and hatred and medieval torture. The UN can and will make all the necessary motions to the sub-committees for the estbalishment of protocols outlining the speaking terms negotiating the working paper to form an associated panel that will outline the pertinent issues involved in, um, what were we talking about again.</p>
<p>Anyway. Human rights, the UN. What&#8217;s wrong with that Colonle Quaddafi heading it up. He always been big on human rights don&#8217;t you know.</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22030</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>SL, what is your experience of Allan? It is pretty clear The Luvvies have met and are trying to present him as a marginal loon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SL, what is your experience of Allan? It is pretty clear The Luvvies have met and are trying to present him as a marginal loon.</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-22026</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 00:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2008/01/01/rights-or-wrong/#comment-22026</guid>
		<description>I used Hayek to argue the HC&#039;s incompetence to pass judgement on things such as &quot;norms&quot; as The High Court has neither the collective memory nor data-gathering abilities to even be considered a competitor to parliament in the assessment of prevailing social norms and standards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used Hayek to argue the HC&#8217;s incompetence to pass judgement on things such as &#8220;norms&#8221; as The High Court has neither the collective memory nor data-gathering abilities to even be considered a competitor to parliament in the assessment of prevailing social norms and standards</p>
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