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	<title>Comments on: Expert witnesses, gay rights and you can&#8217;t say that on the stand!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers on law, legislation and liberty. And other stuff.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Adrienswords</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9475</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrienswords</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 06:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9475</guid>
		<description>John I dunno for sure but I suspect it would take a lot more than a wayward Catallxy thread to get her to cry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John I dunno for sure but I suspect it would take a lot more than a wayward Catallxy thread to get her to cry.</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9474</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9474</guid>
		<description>Adrien

I have no doubt her eyes with well with tears when she realises her contribution to "celebrating diversiy."  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrien</p>
<p>I have no doubt her eyes with well with tears when she realises her contribution to &#8220;celebrating diversiy.&#8221;  <img src='http://skepticlawyer.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Adrienswords</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9473</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrienswords</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 03:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9473</guid>
		<description>I really wonder what Skeptic's gonna think when she comes back. It starts off as a piece on jurisprudence, takes a turn into Aristotle v Plato 360BCE, does the Foucault a go go, then we have to think about whether the Greeks were gay or just child molesters, did some of us mutate into homosexuals around the time &lt;i&gt;The Wizard of Oz&lt;/i&gt; came out, does the opera suck worse than the Beatles, &lt;i&gt;House Nigger Wannabe&lt;/I&gt; the musical and now the Latin Mass.

What will we think of next?

BTW CL I agree. The Latin Mass could do with a revival. Not everywhere but surely once a week in the major cathedrals. The rituals are, after all beautiful and in my opinion not the thing that turns modern people off Catholicism.

That would be archaic prejudices against stuff like homosexuality and contraception.

Sorry. Couldn't help myself. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really wonder what Skeptic&#8217;s gonna think when she comes back. It starts off as a piece on jurisprudence, takes a turn into Aristotle v Plato 360BCE, does the Foucault a go go, then we have to think about whether the Greeks were gay or just child molesters, did some of us mutate into homosexuals around the time <i>The Wizard of Oz</i> came out, does the opera suck worse than the Beatles, <i>House Nigger Wannabe</i> the musical and now the Latin Mass.</p>
<p>What will we think of next?</p>
<p>BTW CL I agree. The Latin Mass could do with a revival. Not everywhere but surely once a week in the major cathedrals. The rituals are, after all beautiful and in my opinion not the thing that turns modern people off Catholicism.</p>
<p>That would be archaic prejudices against stuff like homosexuality and contraception.</p>
<p>Sorry. Couldn&#8217;t help myself. <img src='http://skepticlawyer.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9472</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 03:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9472</guid>
		<description>#18 "narratology"

These big word aficionados, sheesh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#18 &#8220;narratology&#8221;</p>
<p>These big word aficionados, sheesh.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9471</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9471</guid>
		<description>Perhaps of interest here - in a discussion largely beyond me, I confess - is the recent revivification of the Tridentine Mass (or Mass of John XXIII). Considered by some people to be one of the cultural treasures of the Western world, its language (Latin) as well as its historical, rubristic, literary, intellectual and other - even theatrical - hallmarks, might be considered, by these very facts, to be HC. And, to be sure, you do encounter - in my limited experience - decidedly bourgeois and educated people who are most dedicated to its revival (along with the Gregorian chant that is its natural cultural fellow traveller). When the old Mass was done away with, it was indeed a HC literary group that protested directly to Pope Paul VI. Here is their letter - an interestingly high-brow, even paternalistic, plea for a stay of execution:

&lt;blockquote&gt;If some senseless decree were to order the total or partial destruction of basilicas or cathedrals, then obviously it would be the educated - whatever their personal beliefs - who would rise up in horror to oppose such a possibility. Now the fact is that basilicas and cathedrals were built so as to celebrate a rite which, until a few months ago, constituted a living tradition. We are referring to the Roman Catholic Mass. Yet, according to the latest information in Rome, there is a plan to obliterate that Mass by the end of the current year. One of the axioms of contemporary publicity, religious as well as secular, is that modern man in general, and intellectuals in particular, have become intolerant of all forms of tradition and are anxious to suppress them and put something else in their place. But, like many other affirmations of our publicity machines, this axiom is false. Today, as in times gone by, educated people are in the vanguard where recognition of the value of tradition in concerned, and are the first to raise the alarm when it is threatened. We are not at this moment considering the religious or spiritual experience of millions of individuals. The rite in question, in its magnificent Latin text, has also inspired a host of priceless achievements in the arts - not only mystical works, but works by poets, philosophers, musicians, architects, painters and sculptors in all countries and epochs. Thus, it belongs to universal culture as well as to churchmen and formal Christians. In the materialistic and technocratic civilisation that is increasingly threatening the life of mind and spirit in its original creative expression - the word - it seems particularly inhuman to deprive man of word-forms in one of their most grandiose manifestations. The signatories of this appeal, which is entirely ecumenical and non-political, have been drawn from every branch of modern culture in Europe and elsewhere. They wish to call to the attention of the Holy See, the appalling responsibility it would incur in the history of the human spirit were it to refuse to allow the Traditional Mass to survive, even though this survival took place side by side with other liturgical reforms.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

[&lt;b&gt;Signatories&lt;/b&gt;: Harold Acton, Vladimir Ashkenazy, John Bayler, Lennox Berkeley, Maurice Bowra, Agatha Christie, Kenneth Clark, Nevill Coghill, Cyril Connolly, Colin Davis, Hugh Delargy, + Robert Exeter, Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Constantine Fitzgibbon, William Glock, Magdalen Gofflin, Robert Graves, Graham Greene, Ian Greenless, Joseph Grimond, Harman Grisewood, Colin Hardie, Rupert Hart-Davis, Barbara Hepworth, Auberon Herbert, John Jolliffe, David Jones, Osbert Lancaster, F.R. Leavis, Cecil Day Lewis, Compton Mackenzie, George Malcolm, Max Mallowan, Alfred Marnau, Yehudi Menuhin, Nancy Mitford, Raymond Mortimer, Malcolm Muggeridge, Iris Murdoch, John Murray, Sean O'Faolain, E.J. Oliver, Oxford and Asquith, William Plomer, Kathleen Raine, William Rees-Mogg, Ralph Richardson, + John Ripon, Charles Russell, Rivers Scott, Joan Sutherland, Philip Toynbee, Martin Turnell, Bernard Wall, Patrick Wall, E.I Watkin, R.C. Zaehner].

That was 1971. Nowadays, nevertheless, some of the most conservative Catholics in the world are decidedly &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; tophat or educated and many of these are the most committed and enthusiastic Tridentinists of all. I've never attended ("heard", as they used to say) Mass according to this rite, being an entirely post-Tridentine bambino. But I have started to wonder if Benedict XVI hasn't really struck a resounding cultural chord with his re-introduction of the once Tridentine, now Johannine Mass. And this new liturgical movement seems to transcend class-associated tastes, whatever that might mean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps of interest here - in a discussion largely beyond me, I confess - is the recent revivification of the Tridentine Mass (or Mass of John XXIII). Considered by some people to be one of the cultural treasures of the Western world, its language (Latin) as well as its historical, rubristic, literary, intellectual and other - even theatrical - hallmarks, might be considered, by these very facts, to be HC. And, to be sure, you do encounter - in my limited experience - decidedly bourgeois and educated people who are most dedicated to its revival (along with the Gregorian chant that is its natural cultural fellow traveller). When the old Mass was done away with, it was indeed a HC literary group that protested directly to Pope Paul VI. Here is their letter - an interestingly high-brow, even paternalistic, plea for a stay of execution:</p>
<blockquote><p>If some senseless decree were to order the total or partial destruction of basilicas or cathedrals, then obviously it would be the educated - whatever their personal beliefs - who would rise up in horror to oppose such a possibility. Now the fact is that basilicas and cathedrals were built so as to celebrate a rite which, until a few months ago, constituted a living tradition. We are referring to the Roman Catholic Mass. Yet, according to the latest information in Rome, there is a plan to obliterate that Mass by the end of the current year. One of the axioms of contemporary publicity, religious as well as secular, is that modern man in general, and intellectuals in particular, have become intolerant of all forms of tradition and are anxious to suppress them and put something else in their place. But, like many other affirmations of our publicity machines, this axiom is false. Today, as in times gone by, educated people are in the vanguard where recognition of the value of tradition in concerned, and are the first to raise the alarm when it is threatened. We are not at this moment considering the religious or spiritual experience of millions of individuals. The rite in question, in its magnificent Latin text, has also inspired a host of priceless achievements in the arts - not only mystical works, but works by poets, philosophers, musicians, architects, painters and sculptors in all countries and epochs. Thus, it belongs to universal culture as well as to churchmen and formal Christians. In the materialistic and technocratic civilisation that is increasingly threatening the life of mind and spirit in its original creative expression - the word - it seems particularly inhuman to deprive man of word-forms in one of their most grandiose manifestations. The signatories of this appeal, which is entirely ecumenical and non-political, have been drawn from every branch of modern culture in Europe and elsewhere. They wish to call to the attention of the Holy See, the appalling responsibility it would incur in the history of the human spirit were it to refuse to allow the Traditional Mass to survive, even though this survival took place side by side with other liturgical reforms.</p></blockquote>
<p>[<b>Signatories</b>: Harold Acton, Vladimir Ashkenazy, John Bayler, Lennox Berkeley, Maurice Bowra, Agatha Christie, Kenneth Clark, Nevill Coghill, Cyril Connolly, Colin Davis, Hugh Delargy, + Robert Exeter, Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Constantine Fitzgibbon, William Glock, Magdalen Gofflin, Robert Graves, Graham Greene, Ian Greenless, Joseph Grimond, Harman Grisewood, Colin Hardie, Rupert Hart-Davis, Barbara Hepworth, Auberon Herbert, John Jolliffe, David Jones, Osbert Lancaster, F.R. Leavis, Cecil Day Lewis, Compton Mackenzie, George Malcolm, Max Mallowan, Alfred Marnau, Yehudi Menuhin, Nancy Mitford, Raymond Mortimer, Malcolm Muggeridge, Iris Murdoch, John Murray, Sean O'Faolain, E.J. Oliver, Oxford and Asquith, William Plomer, Kathleen Raine, William Rees-Mogg, Ralph Richardson, + John Ripon, Charles Russell, Rivers Scott, Joan Sutherland, Philip Toynbee, Martin Turnell, Bernard Wall, Patrick Wall, E.I Watkin, R.C. Zaehner].</p>
<p>That was 1971. Nowadays, nevertheless, some of the most conservative Catholics in the world are decidedly <i>not</i> tophat or educated and many of these are the most committed and enthusiastic Tridentinists of all. I&#8217;ve never attended (&#8221;heard&#8221;, as they used to say) Mass according to this rite, being an entirely post-Tridentine bambino. But I have started to wonder if Benedict XVI hasn&#8217;t really struck a resounding cultural chord with his re-introduction of the once Tridentine, now Johannine Mass. And this new liturgical movement seems to transcend class-associated tastes, whatever that might mean.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrienswords</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9470</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrienswords</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9470</guid>
		<description>He doesn't like fucking opera!

I wonder if Graeme likes opera.

Is Graeme an opera?

They should write an Opera: &lt;i&gt;Bird: The Opera&lt;/i&gt; I shall write the libretto:

Get fucked you fucking house nigger-wannabe son of Joachim of Fiore holocaust denying kkkkunt.

Etc.

I think "House Nigger Wannabe" will be the hit tune.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He doesn&#8217;t like fucking opera!</p>
<p>I wonder if Graeme likes opera.</p>
<p>Is Graeme an opera?</p>
<p>They should write an Opera: <i>Bird: The Opera</i> I shall write the libretto:</p>
<p>Get fucked you fucking house nigger-wannabe son of Joachim of Fiore holocaust denying kkkkunt.</p>
<p>Etc.</p>
<p>I think &#8220;House Nigger Wannabe&#8221; will be the hit tune.</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9469</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9469</guid>
		<description>Jason

Anyway dude, why have you been so hard on me!?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason</p>
<p>Anyway dude, why have you been so hard on me!?</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9468</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9468</guid>
		<description>Adriensworld

No. Just more than half-way thru a six-pack of VB! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adriensworld</p>
<p>No. Just more than half-way thru a six-pack of VB! <img src='http://skepticlawyer.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Adrienswords</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9467</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrienswords</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9467</guid>
		<description>What's with the aliteration JG. You trying to be Clive James?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s with the aliteration JG. You trying to be Clive James?</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/02/expert-witnesses-gay-rights-and-you-cant-say-that-on-the-stand/#comment-9466</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3419#comment-9466</guid>
		<description>Adriens

Now, now, you've already been warned about mentioning the hive-mind outside its own Habermas-honed-honey producing hivemind!  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adriens</p>
<p>Now, now, you&#8217;ve already been warned about mentioning the hive-mind outside its own Habermas-honed-honey producing hivemind!  <img src='http://skepticlawyer.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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