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	<title>Comments on: Some people will try anything</title>
	<atom:link href="http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/03/some-people-will-try-anything/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/03/some-people-will-try-anything/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers on law, legislation and liberty. And other stuff.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/03/some-people-will-try-anything/#comment-11808</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/?p=553#comment-11808</guid>
		<description>Dave, interesting point. The main ways that religion still comes into the law in Victoria today are the following:
(a) Allowing people to swear on their holy book of choice;
(b) Saying "God Save the Queen" when Court is opened; and
(c) Opening of the Legal Year religious services.

I take a relaxed view as to (a), because by allowing a person to swear on a particular book, the court is not sanctioning that religion, they are impressing on a witness the importance of telling the truth. Personally I have never sworn on the Bible or any other book, and I always affirm, but I do think people should be given a culturally/religiously appropriate choice. It is good that there is a choice not to use any holy book if you want to do so.

As a Republican, I really hate (b). I don't have anything against the Queen, but I certainly don't want God to save her especially. I also don't think it's appropriate to mention God in the opening of the Court.

As to (c), again I don't have any problem, as long as the particular religious group is not saying God has the answers to legal disputes.

As I've said before in relation to a post on this subject at &lt;a href="http://www.intelligentdesign.com.au/blog/2008/01/30/red-mass-the-court-goes-to-church/" rel="nofollow"&gt;A Roll of the Dice&lt;/a&gt;, I must confess that I have attended a number of synagogue services for the opening of the Legal Year. And I enjoyed them (admittedly those little plum cakes after the service may have played a part too in my enjoyment...mmm...none of the Christians got any food). In those instances, it was not so much about seeking divine guidance as confirming that fair, impartial judgment was an important part of both the Jewish faith and our legal system. From that point of view, I found the ceremony to be a positive thing.

As I’ve said, I am a very firm believer in impartial judgment, regardless of faith, race, gender, sexuality or whatever. Insofar as opening of the legal year services serve to confirm and celebrate those principles, I’m all for them.

However, I am a little disturbed by the concept of divine guidance and the courts: justice in the court can only be handed down by a man or woman, not God. Religion should only enter into judgment tangentially (eg, if the litigants have a particular religion which is relevant to the way in which they have behaved or something like that).

If one is a religious judge, I believe that all one should pray for is for God to give you the strength and wisdom to make a fair decision, He (or She) can't give you the answer. It’s a bit like my post on &lt;a href="http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/fighting-the-good-fight/" rel="nofollow"&gt;praying to God to win a soccer match&lt;/a&gt; - in my opinion you can’t pray to win the match, all you can pray for is for God to give you the strength to try. The rest is up to you. And so it is for judging too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, interesting point. The main ways that religion still comes into the law in Victoria today are the following:<br />
(a) Allowing people to swear on their holy book of choice;<br />
(b) Saying &#8220;God Save the Queen&#8221; when Court is opened; and<br />
(c) Opening of the Legal Year religious services.</p>
<p>I take a relaxed view as to (a), because by allowing a person to swear on a particular book, the court is not sanctioning that religion, they are impressing on a witness the importance of telling the truth. Personally I have never sworn on the Bible or any other book, and I always affirm, but I do think people should be given a culturally/religiously appropriate choice. It is good that there is a choice not to use any holy book if you want to do so.</p>
<p>As a Republican, I really hate (b). I don&#8217;t have anything against the Queen, but I certainly don&#8217;t want God to save her especially. I also don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s appropriate to mention God in the opening of the Court.</p>
<p>As to (c), again I don&#8217;t have any problem, as long as the particular religious group is not saying God has the answers to legal disputes.</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said before in relation to a post on this subject at <a href="http://www.intelligentdesign.com.au/blog/2008/01/30/red-mass-the-court-goes-to-church/" rel="nofollow">A Roll of the Dice</a>, I must confess that I have attended a number of synagogue services for the opening of the Legal Year. And I enjoyed them (admittedly those little plum cakes after the service may have played a part too in my enjoyment&#8230;mmm&#8230;none of the Christians got any food). In those instances, it was not so much about seeking divine guidance as confirming that fair, impartial judgment was an important part of both the Jewish faith and our legal system. From that point of view, I found the ceremony to be a positive thing.</p>
<p>As I’ve said, I am a very firm believer in impartial judgment, regardless of faith, race, gender, sexuality or whatever. Insofar as opening of the legal year services serve to confirm and celebrate those principles, I’m all for them.</p>
<p>However, I am a little disturbed by the concept of divine guidance and the courts: justice in the court can only be handed down by a man or woman, not God. Religion should only enter into judgment tangentially (eg, if the litigants have a particular religion which is relevant to the way in which they have behaved or something like that).</p>
<p>If one is a religious judge, I believe that all one should pray for is for God to give you the strength and wisdom to make a fair decision, He (or She) can&#8217;t give you the answer. It’s a bit like my post on <a href="http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/fighting-the-good-fight/" rel="nofollow">praying to God to win a soccer match</a> - in my opinion you can’t pray to win the match, all you can pray for is for God to give you the strength to try. The rest is up to you. And so it is for judging too.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Bath</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/03/some-people-will-try-anything/#comment-11807</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Bath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/?p=553#comment-11807</guid>
		<description>Then again, the standard of offering a bible in our courts, or the (often erroneous) use of the Koran in Sharia, lends support to the existence of a deity that has no basis in evidence, and thus makes it logically inconsistent to pooh-pooh the claims of such idiots, as the courts support the underlying assumptions.

The law should excise all elements of any theology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then again, the standard of offering a bible in our courts, or the (often erroneous) use of the Koran in Sharia, lends support to the existence of a deity that has no basis in evidence, and thus makes it logically inconsistent to pooh-pooh the claims of such idiots, as the courts support the underlying assumptions.</p>
<p>The law should excise all elements of any theology.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/03/some-people-will-try-anything/#comment-11806</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/?p=553#comment-11806</guid>
		<description>I knew I remembered it was a good story!  I wish I could get one of those tea towels myself...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew I remembered it was a good story!  I wish I could get one of those tea towels myself&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: blonde canadian</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/03/some-people-will-try-anything/#comment-11805</link>
		<dc:creator>blonde canadian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalsoapbox.wordpress.com/?p=553#comment-11805</guid>
		<description>LE, that is gold. I love that the judges let him get away with it, too.

Where would we be without crazy people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LE, that is gold. I love that the judges let him get away with it, too.</p>
<p>Where would we be without crazy people?</p>
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