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	<title>Comments on: Teaching students to read a full case</title>
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	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers on law, legislation and liberty. And other stuff.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12175</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 11:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12175</guid>
		<description>Yes, they probably don't need every case. I was suffering post-essay-marking grumpiness when writing this post.

But I would like it if they read &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; cases in full. Just so that they know how. Even if they don't full understand the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, they probably don&#8217;t need every case. I was suffering post-essay-marking grumpiness when writing this post.</p>
<p>But I would like it if they read <i>some</i> cases in full. Just so that they know how. Even if they don&#8217;t full understand the case.</p>
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		<title>By: marcellous</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12172</link>
		<dc:creator>marcellous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 10:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12172</guid>
		<description>Oh, for God's sake, they're only learning!

Casebooks are fine: they are, as Jacques said, aggregators.  They save time, effort and paper.  

Often the students won't be able to understand some of the procedural and factual detail in older cases.  Often only a portion of a case is relevant and the legal questions dealt with in the other sections will still be beyond their comprehension.  

Speaking from my own, now long distant, teaching experience, I would be quite happy if the students even actually read (carefully, of course) the portions of the case extracted in the case book.  Of course, this depends on the care in which the casebook is prepared. 

I think students can learn to read cases without necessarily reading every case which is cited to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, for God&#8217;s sake, they&#8217;re only learning!</p>
<p>Casebooks are fine: they are, as Jacques said, aggregators.  They save time, effort and paper.  </p>
<p>Often the students won&#8217;t be able to understand some of the procedural and factual detail in older cases.  Often only a portion of a case is relevant and the legal questions dealt with in the other sections will still be beyond their comprehension.  </p>
<p>Speaking from my own, now long distant, teaching experience, I would be quite happy if the students even actually read (carefully, of course) the portions of the case extracted in the case book.  Of course, this depends on the care in which the casebook is prepared. </p>
<p>I think students can learn to read cases without necessarily reading every case which is cited to them.</p>
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		<title>By: boredacademic</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12065</link>
		<dc:creator>boredacademic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 10:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12065</guid>
		<description>A rant to the class is this week's job Legal Eagle. Last year I considered showing some of the opinions to one of the more forthright lawyers around town and inviting her to tell the students what would happen if she was ever handed such rubbish - might do that some time</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A rant to the class is this week&#8217;s job Legal Eagle. Last year I considered showing some of the opinions to one of the more forthright lawyers around town and inviting her to tell the students what would happen if she was ever handed such rubbish - might do that some time</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12064</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 10:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12064</guid>
		<description>I haven't used a casebook for eons, but the very best textbooks are very good indeed (I'm thinking &lt;i&gt;Cross &#038; Tapper on Evidence&lt;/i&gt; here). My study strategy is a good textbook followed by reading a decent selection of the important cases from go to whoa. I usually read the important cases twice - once during the term and then again (briefly) in the month before the exam. I am dyslexic and so cannot skim; my skill is in working out which cases are important, so I don't waste my time. A good textbook is vital in those circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t used a casebook for eons, but the very best textbooks are very good indeed (I&#8217;m thinking <i>Cross &#038; Tapper on Evidence</i> here). My study strategy is a good textbook followed by reading a decent selection of the important cases from go to whoa. I usually read the important cases twice - once during the term and then again (briefly) in the month before the exam. I am dyslexic and so cannot skim; my skill is in working out which cases are important, so I don&#8217;t waste my time. A good textbook is vital in those circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12061</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 09:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12061</guid>
		<description>Legal Eagle;

I think that the future of textbooks will be something like the Amazon Kindle -- an ebook reader. Consider that each semester's textbooks for most topics is $500 and up, suddenly a $450 device seems like a good bet.

In law it would be pretty easy to ditch the textbooks as they mostly perform an aggregation role, rather than adding much value. This is because the core value is in the cases themselves.

I'm not sure whether that model fits in computer science, my own major; especially since journal articles tend to be copyrighted to a small group of publishers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Legal Eagle;</p>
<p>I think that the future of textbooks will be something like the Amazon Kindle &#8212; an ebook reader. Consider that each semester&#8217;s textbooks for most topics is $500 and up, suddenly a $450 device seems like a good bet.</p>
<p>In law it would be pretty easy to ditch the textbooks as they mostly perform an aggregation role, rather than adding much value. This is because the core value is in the cases themselves.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure whether that model fits in computer science, my own major; especially since journal articles tend to be copyrighted to a small group of publishers.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12058</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 08:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12058</guid>
		<description>Sweeney, FRICKING team exercises! A blight upon my life. They're &lt;b&gt;nothing like&lt;/b&gt; the kind of teamwork which you are expected to do in a law firm. For one thing, a team in a law firm has a boss or a manager...a team in a university subject is a team of equals. I have always found teamwork done in an academic context to be extremely frustrating. I am the kind of person who ends up being loaded with all the work. 

The only time I ever had a good uni team experience was when I was in a team of workaholics like myself - everyone pulled her weight, our main problem was that we did TOO much, so one useful team member's role was to cut it all down to something managable!

I promise you, when I am the king of the academics, there SHALL BE NO TEAM EXERCISES. TEAM EXERCISES ARE AGAINST MY RELIGION. I think they're invented by academics who didn't practice for long and thus have no idea of how a &lt;i&gt;real team&lt;/i&gt; works.

So I sympathise with your position - how frustrating. Good luck with it all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sweeney, FRICKING team exercises! A blight upon my life. They&#8217;re <b>nothing like</b> the kind of teamwork which you are expected to do in a law firm. For one thing, a team in a law firm has a boss or a manager&#8230;a team in a university subject is a team of equals. I have always found teamwork done in an academic context to be extremely frustrating. I am the kind of person who ends up being loaded with all the work. </p>
<p>The only time I ever had a good uni team experience was when I was in a team of workaholics like myself - everyone pulled her weight, our main problem was that we did TOO much, so one useful team member&#8217;s role was to cut it all down to something managable!</p>
<p>I promise you, when I am the king of the academics, there SHALL BE NO TEAM EXERCISES. TEAM EXERCISES ARE AGAINST MY RELIGION. I think they&#8217;re invented by academics who didn&#8217;t practice for long and thus have no idea of how a <i>real team</i> works.</p>
<p>So I sympathise with your position - how frustrating. Good luck with it all.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12056</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 08:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12056</guid>
		<description>Boredacademic, I'm glad I'm not the only one...it's that time of year...perhaps you should "vent" in a rant to your class too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boredacademic, I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;m not the only one&#8230;it&#8217;s that time of year&#8230;perhaps you should &#8220;vent&#8221; in a rant to your class too.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12055</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 08:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12055</guid>
		<description>JC, I think the main reasons casebooks are set is because students would freak out totally if they were confronted with a giant stack of undifferentiated reading, and also...that's the way it's always been done.

They're not &lt;i&gt;evil&lt;/i&gt;, just a little conducive to laziness. So I'd still use them, I'd just then go to the original case after using them. In doing legal research, I usually read what someone else has said about a case first before I launch into it.

I don't actually like the US Socratic method much, being a UK educated gal and therefore quite traditional. 

Also, I don't think you can get proper contribution from a class until (a) the class knows something about the topic (topic usually takes a few weeks to percolate through) (b) the class feels comfortable with the teacher and the other students and (c) the class is not too large. I'm the kind of person who'd thrive in a Socratic style class, but I know my sister (a much shyer person) might not have thrived. So I try to tailor my classes to all personality types - some lecturing, some questioning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC, I think the main reasons casebooks are set is because students would freak out totally if they were confronted with a giant stack of undifferentiated reading, and also&#8230;that&#8217;s the way it&#8217;s always been done.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re not <i>evil</i>, just a little conducive to laziness. So I&#8217;d still use them, I&#8217;d just then go to the original case after using them. In doing legal research, I usually read what someone else has said about a case first before I launch into it.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t actually like the US Socratic method much, being a UK educated gal and therefore quite traditional. </p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t think you can get proper contribution from a class until (a) the class knows something about the topic (topic usually takes a few weeks to percolate through) (b) the class feels comfortable with the teacher and the other students and (c) the class is not too large. I&#8217;m the kind of person who&#8217;d thrive in a Socratic style class, but I know my sister (a much shyer person) might not have thrived. So I try to tailor my classes to all personality types - some lecturing, some questioning.</p>
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		<title>By: Sweeney</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12054</link>
		<dc:creator>Sweeney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 06:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12054</guid>
		<description>I'm studying law as a mature age student. I've always made a point of reading cases but this year it's a struggle because I'm drowning in time-consuming  'team work', leaving little time to engage in solitary  practices like reading the cases. David Post says that inability to read cases is a huge disadvantage, but as students we are told that law firms are after 'team skills'. Not that the particular  'team work' in question is likely to develop such skills, but that's another story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m studying law as a mature age student. I&#8217;ve always made a point of reading cases but this year it&#8217;s a struggle because I&#8217;m drowning in time-consuming  &#8216;team work&#8217;, leaving little time to engage in solitary  practices like reading the cases. David Post says that inability to read cases is a huge disadvantage, but as students we are told that law firms are after &#8216;team skills&#8217;. Not that the particular  &#8216;team work&#8217; in question is likely to develop such skills, but that&#8217;s another story.</p>
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		<title>By: boredacademic</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/05/teaching-students-to-read-a-full-case/#comment-12051</link>
		<dc:creator>boredacademic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 05:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=703#comment-12051</guid>
		<description>I am currently taking a brief break from marking legal opinions and fully agree on the failure to read cases.  The distinct impression is that the students have read few if any of the cases and merely taken an authority from a text book and cited it for the same proposition.  Never mind that the factual situations are quite different</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am currently taking a brief break from marking legal opinions and fully agree on the failure to read cases.  The distinct impression is that the students have read few if any of the cases and merely taken an authority from a text book and cited it for the same proposition.  Never mind that the factual situations are quite different</p>
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