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	<title>Comments on: Divorce may be a Good Thing (quel horreur!)</title>
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	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers on law, legislation and liberty. And other stuff.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-15024</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Aug 2008 23:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-15024</guid>
		<description>Putting my child in childcare from 6 weeks would be an absolute last resort if I couldn't manage anything else. As it was, with my first child, we preferred to eat into our meagre savings rather than for me to go back to work too early. But when we ate up all the savings after 5 months, I was forced to go back to work. I hope to take a year off for No. 2, but we'll see how we go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Putting my child in childcare from 6 weeks would be an absolute last resort if I couldn&#8217;t manage anything else. As it was, with my first child, we preferred to eat into our meagre savings rather than for me to go back to work too early. But when we ate up all the savings after 5 months, I was forced to go back to work. I hope to take a year off for No. 2, but we&#8217;ll see how we go.</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-15020</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Aug 2008 22:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-15020</guid>
		<description>Mem Fox is going to be receiving a lot of hate mail this week,

&lt;i&gt;Leading children's author Mem Fox has drawn criticism from working mothers but qualified support from family groups for likening childcare for very young babies to child abuse.&lt;/i&gt;

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/childcare-for-babies-like-abuse/2008/08/31/1220121035944.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mem Fox is going to be receiving a lot of hate mail this week,</p>
<p><i>Leading children&#8217;s author Mem Fox has drawn criticism from working mothers but qualified support from family groups for likening childcare for very young babies to child abuse.</i></p>
<p><a href="http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/childcare-for-babies-like-abuse/2008/08/31/1220121035944.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/childcare-for-babies-like-abuse/2008/08/31/1220121035944.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-14822</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-14822</guid>
		<description>Ah, Edward de Bono, that name really takes me back. Big hair, shoulder pads, Duran Duran and Edward de Bono.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Edward de Bono, that name really takes me back. Big hair, shoulder pads, Duran Duran and Edward de Bono.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-14784</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-14784</guid>
		<description>I believe Edward de Bono suggested that marriage should be reformed as a short-term contract of 5 years with an option to renew. I thought the idea quite brilliant. 

A lot of people think marriage is something at which you fail or succeed. A refusal to admit failure can see people dogging it out when there's no point. However if marriage is short term it means there's no failure as such. It also means you don't take each other for granted as the tender'll be up soon enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe Edward de Bono suggested that marriage should be reformed as a short-term contract of 5 years with an option to renew. I thought the idea quite brilliant. </p>
<p>A lot of people think marriage is something at which you fail or succeed. A refusal to admit failure can see people dogging it out when there&#8217;s no point. However if marriage is short term it means there&#8217;s no failure as such. It also means you don&#8217;t take each other for granted as the tender&#8217;ll be up soon enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-14770</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-14770</guid>
		<description>Another thing is that women may not &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; benefit from divorce, particularly if the divorce wasn't the woman's choice. I have seen women struggling financially and trying to bring up the kids. There is a concept of "sexually transmitted debt" - ie, women left impoverished after divorce because they didn't work as much as the man, and rather looked after the kids. Our Family Law Act and other redistributive property remedies such as the constructive trust try to deal with this.

Of course, it's impossible to generalise. I know another friend who is heartily glad her parents divorced when she was young. Her father treated her mother very badly, whereas her stepfather has been very caring and faithful. So both my friend and her mother benefitted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thing is that women may not <i>always</i> benefit from divorce, particularly if the divorce wasn&#8217;t the woman&#8217;s choice. I have seen women struggling financially and trying to bring up the kids. There is a concept of &#8220;sexually transmitted debt&#8221; - ie, women left impoverished after divorce because they didn&#8217;t work as much as the man, and rather looked after the kids. Our Family Law Act and other redistributive property remedies such as the constructive trust try to deal with this.</p>
<p>Of course, it&#8217;s impossible to generalise. I know another friend who is heartily glad her parents divorced when she was young. Her father treated her mother very badly, whereas her stepfather has been very caring and faithful. So both my friend and her mother benefitted.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-14768</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-14768</guid>
		<description>The thing is that divorce can &lt;i&gt;sometimes&lt;/i&gt; be devastating for children. I have a very old friend whom I have known since the beginning of primary school. Her parents divorced about three years ago, and even though all the children are adults, it tore them apart. My friend's partner is also a child of a messy divorce. 

My friend and her partner are not married (somewhat shy of it, I think, after watching their parents) but have two children. Both parties to the relationship have said they would always try and work through any difficulties rather than put their kids through what they had to go through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing is that divorce can <i>sometimes</i> be devastating for children. I have a very old friend whom I have known since the beginning of primary school. Her parents divorced about three years ago, and even though all the children are adults, it tore them apart. My friend&#8217;s partner is also a child of a messy divorce. </p>
<p>My friend and her partner are not married (somewhat shy of it, I think, after watching their parents) but have two children. Both parties to the relationship have said they would always try and work through any difficulties rather than put their kids through what they had to go through.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-14759</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-14759</guid>
		<description>"What does perplex me is the possibility that marriage is a zero-sum game."

Whilst on average it's a zero sum game (or close to it), there is of course a huge distribution of people where both lose, one loses and the other wins etc. You could certainly set up laws or social campaigns that would cause it to be a winner. We already do that -- it's why people frown on early marriage now. That's why I wonder if we should be encouraging divorce more, rather than sponsering marriage counselling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What does perplex me is the possibility that marriage is a zero-sum game.&#8221;</p>
<p>Whilst on average it&#8217;s a zero sum game (or close to it), there is of course a huge distribution of people where both lose, one loses and the other wins etc. You could certainly set up laws or social campaigns that would cause it to be a winner. We already do that &#8212; it&#8217;s why people frown on early marriage now. That&#8217;s why I wonder if we should be encouraging divorce more, rather than sponsering marriage counselling.</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-14748</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:03:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-14748</guid>
		<description>I'm claiming that both may be a good thing, Terje - the legal 'permission' and the actual act. When it comes to the actual act, there's Oswald and Gardner's big study showing that divorcees, unlike widows and widowers, are happier one year after the marriage ends than while they were still married. 

However, if you find 'happiness research' to be rather dodgy (I know I do), then it's possible to fall back on more conventional economic arguments - finding a marriage partner is rather like finding a job, and we all know that a job market where nobody could quit or be fired wouldn't work very well. People - lots of people - would finish up in jobs they hated or were crap at. 

I'm not going to hazard a guess at what an 'optimal' divorce rate would look like, but I'm positive it isn't zero.

Mel: an interesting but high-risk strategy, as quite a few blokes have discovered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m claiming that both may be a good thing, Terje - the legal &#8216;permission&#8217; and the actual act. When it comes to the actual act, there&#8217;s Oswald and Gardner&#8217;s big study showing that divorcees, unlike widows and widowers, are happier one year after the marriage ends than while they were still married. </p>
<p>However, if you find &#8216;happiness research&#8217; to be rather dodgy (I know I do), then it&#8217;s possible to fall back on more conventional economic arguments - finding a marriage partner is rather like finding a job, and we all know that a job market where nobody could quit or be fired wouldn&#8217;t work very well. People - lots of people - would finish up in jobs they hated or were crap at. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not going to hazard a guess at what an &#8216;optimal&#8217; divorce rate would look like, but I&#8217;m positive it isn&#8217;t zero.</p>
<p>Mel: an interesting but high-risk strategy, as quite a few blokes have discovered.</p>
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		<title>By: Melaleuca</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-14738</link>
		<dc:creator>Melaleuca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-14738</guid>
		<description>Oh well, as a last resort a bloke can always bring home a Filipino bride. Or in this day an age, a Russian one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh well, as a last resort a bloke can always bring home a Filipino bride. Or in this day an age, a Russian one.</p>
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		<title>By: TerjeP</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/08/divorce-may-be-a-good-thing-quel-horreur/comment-page-1/#comment-14728</link>
		<dc:creator>TerjeP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=848#comment-14728</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Yes, you read right. I think divorce has had some social effects that are so positive it’s simply impossible to ignore them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think you are conflating two separate issues, perhaps deliberately in order to better grab our attention but maybe not. 

"Divorce" and the "Freedom to Divorce" are not the same thing. The crux of your argument does supports the notion that the latter might be a good thing. However that doesn't mean the former is also a good thing. Just as illicit drug taking and drug prohibition might both be bad things, divorce and divorce prohibition may both be bad things also. Doing something is not the opposite of being prohibited from doing something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Yes, you read right. I think divorce has had some social effects that are so positive it’s simply impossible to ignore them.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think you are conflating two separate issues, perhaps deliberately in order to better grab our attention but maybe not. </p>
<p>&#8220;Divorce&#8221; and the &#8220;Freedom to Divorce&#8221; are not the same thing. The crux of your argument does supports the notion that the latter might be a good thing. However that doesn&#8217;t mean the former is also a good thing. Just as illicit drug taking and drug prohibition might both be bad things, divorce and divorce prohibition may both be bad things also. Doing something is not the opposite of being prohibited from doing something.</p>
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