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	<title>Comments on: The abortion post we had to have - part #1</title>
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	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers on law, legislation and liberty. And other stuff.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer &#187; My Enemy&#8217;s Honour</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-19820</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer &#187; My Enemy&#8217;s Honour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-19820</guid>
		<description>[...] in part because the ruling took the decision away from the legislature, thereby producing serious democratic deficit). Creationism, by contrast (even in its muted &#8216;intelligent design&#8217; form) simply [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in part because the ruling took the decision away from the legislature, thereby producing serious democratic deficit). Creationism, by contrast (even in its muted &#8216;intelligent design&#8217; form) simply [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-18020</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-18020</guid>
		<description>SL

Surely demanding one leave one's feather boa at the door on Sleaze weekend is an egregious offence against some sort of human rights, or at least bitchy gay-boy rights!?    :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SL</p>
<p>Surely demanding one leave one&#8217;s feather boa at the door on Sleaze weekend is an egregious offence against some sort of human rights, or at least bitchy gay-boy rights!?    <img src='http://skepticlawyer.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-17887</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-17887</guid>
		<description>Skeptic - &lt;i&gt;The scarcity argument is a good one. &lt;/i&gt;
.
There's man-drought in Melbourne apparently. Women are complaining there aren't any eligible men. But there's lots of single men. I don't see what they're complaining about.
.
Oh you want a guy that has more than ten bucks and washes on a daily basis. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skeptic - <i>The scarcity argument is a good one. </i><br />
.<br />
There&#8217;s man-drought in Melbourne apparently. Women are complaining there aren&#8217;t any eligible men. But there&#8217;s lots of single men. I don&#8217;t see what they&#8217;re complaining about.<br />
.<br />
Oh you want a guy that has more than ten bucks and washes on a daily basis. <img src='http://skepticlawyer.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-17886</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-17886</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I also think total freewheeling sexual self-indulgence ain’t always a good thing. There doesn’t have to be any commitment these days because one can avoid many consequences of sexual encounters. Sometimes this leaves one party to the relationship feeling pretty betrayed when they realise that for the other party, it was just a “fling” with no real emotion.&lt;/i&gt;
.
I tend to agree. There's a certain free-for-all in the sexual culture at the moment,. There's a pretty clear procession from at least the 1960s echoed in the '20s and the 1800 generation. I don't agree with Conservative when they say the '60s was the End of the World. But liberating oneself &lt;i&gt;en masse&lt;/i&gt; from previous repressions does lead to a period of turmoil. We're at the tail-end of that now.

Viz casual sex, there's ethical requirements for honesty and consideration and the rest. I do find it puzzling that anyone would go to a singles' bar say to look for emotional commitment. But that said there's a huge range of options for the conduct of sexual life between marriage for life and Disco Stu One-Night-Stand revue. 

The Religious Right are, in the main, anti-sexual freedom. Sex for them &lt;i&gt;in extremis&lt;/i&gt; is a necessary evil. To receive pleasure from it; to explore it a la Anais Nin say, is &lt;i&gt;evil&lt;/i&gt;. I'm repulsed by this self-imposed poverty of imagination.

Still I regard the current sexual ethos vulgar and venal.  There's a complete lack of decorum, of manners, of style. There's no tenderness. As Paglia has said where sexual freedom goes sado-masochism follows. 

Still I believe there must be an ethical culture that a. is honest about human sexuality and b. seeks to do more with it than use it to create property-progeny structures. 

Disco Stu doesn't advertise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I also think total freewheeling sexual self-indulgence ain’t always a good thing. There doesn’t have to be any commitment these days because one can avoid many consequences of sexual encounters. Sometimes this leaves one party to the relationship feeling pretty betrayed when they realise that for the other party, it was just a “fling” with no real emotion.</i><br />
.<br />
I tend to agree. There&#8217;s a certain free-for-all in the sexual culture at the moment,. There&#8217;s a pretty clear procession from at least the 1960s echoed in the &#8217;20s and the 1800 generation. I don&#8217;t agree with Conservative when they say the &#8217;60s was the End of the World. But liberating oneself <i>en masse</i> from previous repressions does lead to a period of turmoil. We&#8217;re at the tail-end of that now.</p>
<p>Viz casual sex, there&#8217;s ethical requirements for honesty and consideration and the rest. I do find it puzzling that anyone would go to a singles&#8217; bar say to look for emotional commitment. But that said there&#8217;s a huge range of options for the conduct of sexual life between marriage for life and Disco Stu One-Night-Stand revue. </p>
<p>The Religious Right are, in the main, anti-sexual freedom. Sex for them <i>in extremis</i> is a necessary evil. To receive pleasure from it; to explore it a la Anais Nin say, is <i>evil</i>. I&#8217;m repulsed by this self-imposed poverty of imagination.</p>
<p>Still I regard the current sexual ethos vulgar and venal.  There&#8217;s a complete lack of decorum, of manners, of style. There&#8217;s no tenderness. As Paglia has said where sexual freedom goes sado-masochism follows. </p>
<p>Still I believe there must be an ethical culture that a. is honest about human sexuality and b. seeks to do more with it than use it to create property-progeny structures. </p>
<p>Disco Stu doesn&#8217;t advertise.</p>
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		<title>By: Nanu</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-17854</link>
		<dc:creator>Nanu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-17854</guid>
		<description>To be honest it isn't a question, its a deliberate argument destroyer. A line gets drawn somewhere. The Abortion argument as I've said before is innately personal, we just have to make the best of a raw deal. As Deus said before “I’m pro-abortion access” is the position, nobody is pro-abortion, it stinks but its a necessary evil even to when  something as shallow as economics comes into play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest it isn&#8217;t a question, its a deliberate argument destroyer. A line gets drawn somewhere. The Abortion argument as I&#8217;ve said before is innately personal, we just have to make the best of a raw deal. As Deus said before “I’m pro-abortion access” is the position, nobody is pro-abortion, it stinks but its a necessary evil even to when  something as shallow as economics comes into play.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-17734</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 01:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-17734</guid>
		<description>It definitely still happens. Regardless of whether it's outlawed or not. At least some people in India are actually speaking out against unfair practices with regard to dowries these days. 

I remember a few years back, a talented, intelligent gorgeous girl had an arranged marriage with a guy, but the guy's parents pulled the plug at the last minute because her parents wouldn't accede to their extortionate demands for more dowry. At one time it would have been shameful for her to admit this publicly, but she went on television to point out how ridiculous the whole thing was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It definitely still happens. Regardless of whether it&#8217;s outlawed or not. At least some people in India are actually speaking out against unfair practices with regard to dowries these days. </p>
<p>I remember a few years back, a talented, intelligent gorgeous girl had an arranged marriage with a guy, but the guy&#8217;s parents pulled the plug at the last minute because her parents wouldn&#8217;t accede to their extortionate demands for more dowry. At one time it would have been shameful for her to admit this publicly, but she went on television to point out how ridiculous the whole thing was.</p>
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		<title>By: DeusExMacintosh</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-17723</link>
		<dc:creator>DeusExMacintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 21:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-17723</guid>
		<description>I think India has made dowries illegal 'officially' but of course, this has been impossible to police at local levels because the police themselves support the local culture (Pakistan is notorious for this same problem).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think India has made dowries illegal &#8216;officially&#8217; but of course, this has been impossible to police at local levels because the police themselves support the local culture (Pakistan is notorious for this same problem).</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-17715</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 17:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-17715</guid>
		<description>The scarcity argument is a good one. There is a close link between women enjoying enhanced rights (particularly in relationships) when there are fewer of them, although once again most of the research has been in developed countries, or the 'upper' end of the developing world. 

The gap only needs to be small, too - 100 men to every 99 women produces some very interesting distortions in the marriage 'market'. My suspicion, however, is that for the numerically smaller group of women to get the economic benefit, there needs to be a 'rule of law' framework in place - relatively easy access to divorce, for example, and the ability to choose one's marriage partner. If there was something you wanted to be imperialistic about - even if only with immigrant cultures - it would be working to undermine arranged marriages, as they prevent women in  places with sex-specific abortion making use of their scarcity power.

As to when the positions are reversed, Charles and Luoh have done terrific research on what high rates of male incarceration have done to black women's relationship options in the US (where there are - as a result of incarceration - slightly more black women than men).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The scarcity argument is a good one. There is a close link between women enjoying enhanced rights (particularly in relationships) when there are fewer of them, although once again most of the research has been in developed countries, or the &#8216;upper&#8217; end of the developing world. </p>
<p>The gap only needs to be small, too - 100 men to every 99 women produces some very interesting distortions in the marriage &#8216;market&#8217;. My suspicion, however, is that for the numerically smaller group of women to get the economic benefit, there needs to be a &#8216;rule of law&#8217; framework in place - relatively easy access to divorce, for example, and the ability to choose one&#8217;s marriage partner. If there was something you wanted to be imperialistic about - even if only with immigrant cultures - it would be working to undermine arranged marriages, as they prevent women in  places with sex-specific abortion making use of their scarcity power.</p>
<p>As to when the positions are reversed, Charles and Luoh have done terrific research on what high rates of male incarceration have done to black women&#8217;s relationship options in the US (where there are - as a result of incarceration - slightly more black women than men).</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-17707</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-17707</guid>
		<description>PC, I think you're right that such practices contain the seeds of their own destruction. For one thing, it will mean that there won't be enough women to go around. And then maybe they will start being treated like valued human beings rather than property to be passed from man to man. Scarcity economics...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PC, I think you&#8217;re right that such practices contain the seeds of their own destruction. For one thing, it will mean that there won&#8217;t be enough women to go around. And then maybe they will start being treated like valued human beings rather than property to be passed from man to man. Scarcity economics&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Pavlov's Cat</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2008/09/the-abortion-post-we-had-to-have-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-17703</link>
		<dc:creator>Pavlov's Cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 12:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=887#comment-17703</guid>
		<description>'Nanu’s question is actually a good one'

I agree. To answer it, one would first have to ask oneself why it's the female foetuses that get aborted. If the answer is the large dowries, one must then ask why that. As if one did not know the answer to both questions.

Personally I think a societal tendency to abort female foetuses contains the seeds of its own destruction and requires no intervention from other cultures, only the passage of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Nanu’s question is actually a good one&#8217;</p>
<p>I agree. To answer it, one would first have to ask oneself why it&#8217;s the female foetuses that get aborted. If the answer is the large dowries, one must then ask why that. As if one did not know the answer to both questions.</p>
<p>Personally I think a societal tendency to abort female foetuses contains the seeds of its own destruction and requires no intervention from other cultures, only the passage of time.</p>
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