Tory leader David Cameron has defended expenses claims for his second home and said he would do the job for “half the money, twice the money or no money”.
But Mr Cameron denied he had used the expenses row as a way to get rid of long-serving “grandees” in his party. He told BBC Radio 2′s Jeremy Vine Show: “What we have done is not perfect but at least we have paid the money back.”
Mr Cameron also said he had called for future MPs’ expenses to be published without blacking out large sections.
The Conservative leader has been the subject of press reports about his claims for mortgage interest on his constituency home in Witney, Oxfordshire. But he insisted that he was in politics to serve the public and said he hated the fact that UK politics had been “dragged through the mud”.
- BBC News
That’s right, the old Etonian millionaire-of-the-people is in it for the satisfaction of public service.
And there’s more news of the meritocracy…
Prince William has been made an honorary barrister – but promised not to practise, “except for the odd speeding ticket”. In a ceremony at London’s Middle Temple he was also called to the Bench, the ancient Inns of Court’s governing body.
His “proud grandmother”, the Queen, who could not attend because of another engagement, sent her good wishes…
The second-in-line to the throne is the sixth member of the Royal Family to be made a Royal Bencher, following in the footsteps of the Queen Mother, and his mother Diana, Princess of Wales.
- BBC News
Congratulations, you were BORN! Well done! What an achievement.
54 Comments
Naturally I am very shocked by that barrister story. Where did that tradition come from? I wonder if it comes from the old idea that the monarch is the law?
I have a snobbish streak of my own though – I CAN’T BELIEVE they made Princess Di a barrister… The woman had ONE GCSE. And — well, I’m gonna say it — she always seemed pretty stoopid to me.
What’s the point of these honorary positions anyway? If they are not going to practice, why bother? mutter, mutter, mutter
Perhaps it was William’s ability to find his way to the location that was making the Queen so proud.
Now tut tut you colonials are so cheeky. Of cawse we are awl familiah with the crown prince’s somewhat, ahem, limited pedagogy. But a stupid King is a good king. The smart ones always seem to decide at some point to cut the heads off the House of Lawds. Of cawse the King must be a barrister even if he struggles with Biggles. Especially if he struggles with Biggles. Otherwise we’d begin to think of him as a mediocrity who is given great power at birth because Great Britain doesn’t like to throw away its old governments.
Sentimental y’see.
I suppose you colonials think the head of state should be elected by yourselves. Shocking! Next you’ll have that bloody doggerel about the homeless guy who pinches sheep and tops himself when caught installed as yer national anthem!
Egad! What next? Darkies in Harrods?
Nice Invisibul rhyming couplet. I suppose since you are in theory able to represent yourself in court, an honary barrister(ship/hood?) is slightly less weird than some other honararies.
I can’t see why anybody would think somebody with an Eton and Oxford education is somehow therefore not a desirable person to have in public life. Given that Eton provides probably the best education any teenager on earth could hope for, I don’t understand the cynicism.
Adrien
The only people who think the colonials should not elect their own head of state is a locally-grown vanguard of leftist Luvvies!
Our very own recently retired HC Justice McHugh did not even go to university.
My own observations are that Eton doesn’t provide that good an education any more, JG. It doesn’t feature highly in the league table rankings of the top independent schools. I know all about those league tables, as my own school used to make us pray for good results so we’d come top.
Also, I don’t think William went to Oxford either – he went St Andrews from recollection, which is a very good university – but he didn’t study Law or anything to do with Law.
I have no objection to someone gaining qualification through practical experience as McHugh J did. University qualifications aren’t everything. He is obviously an extremely intelligent and competent lawyer. What I do have an objection to is someone gaining qualification merely by reason of their status in society or who their parents are.
I suspect my dentist must be an honarary B. Dent. Either that or her study entailed repeated viewings of the final scene of Brazil. And she sold the autoclave to buy the waiting room art work. And laces her anaesthetic with a super-strain of Strep Mutans.
Academic league tables are not the most important thing for a good school. Quite important, but not most. Besides, I just read a ranking of the Top 100 schools (in per capita terms) whose students were offered places at Oxbridge, and Eton came fifth.
There are absolute fucking morons who are given honorary doctorates every day in Australia. Thus we have the farce of the nurse, Lowitja O’Donohue duchessing herself about the shop being introduced as DOCTOR Lowitja O’Donohue.
I say, the concern is not yours, but any poor schmuk whose solicitor actually briefs Wills.
Yeah, I’m not much of a fan of the honorary doctorate myself, JG, as someone who is earning one THE HARD WAY!
Like LE I’m a hard-liner who doesn’t approve of honorary degrees (You want a degree? You EARN a degree) but I’m not even that anti-Cameron.
He’s certainly not stupid, and his academic accomplishments at Oxford were quite impressive SL tells me – he’s a fellow Brasenoser (Brasenostril?) – but let’s be clear. This is a guy from an immensely privileged and wealthy background who has not yet proven that his advancement has had anything to do with personal ability. Follow the link. His first interview for a position at Conservative Central Office was accompanied by a telephone reference from BUCKINGHAM PALACE!
Despite this, the ‘man of the people’ bit doesn’t seem to be only an act either. Even with the pedigree and personal wealth he has never seemed part of the awful “grandee” tradition of the Conservative Party (think QC’s, gentleman’s clubs and fat cigars a la Ken Clarke) though even if he has, he has so far successfully buried the evidence (there’s known to be a photo of him at from the Bullingdon Club at Oxford doing the rounds that’s so far been kept out of print).
Nevertheless, for such a rich man to emphasise his wealth in order to ‘prove’ that his expenses claims weren’t for the purposes of self-enrichment I think makes him fair game for a bit of a rib.
“There are absolute fucking morons who are given honorary doctorates every day in Australia”
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Given the extent that doctorates are devalued in Australia now, I wouldn’t be too fussed (and the UK has the same problem). I’m horrified to see what can pass now (which is not to say there arn’t the occasional exceptionally good ones). The only way to get credibility now is to publish stuff in good journals.
Hey JG, do you mind that a nurse can be a doctor? (L O’D with her hon. notwithstanding.) A proper doctor, that is, not a pretend one like most of the medial fellers and fellesses. My partner is a nurse and a PhD in Physiology and a nursing academic with a distinguished publication and teaching record and has recently won a university-wide award for research student supervision – the students in questions are nearly all clinicians. It might cause confusion in people’s minds if a nurse on the ward introduces herself as doctor, but whose problem is it? And who said that medicos could use the hon. title of doctor anyway?
M-H
Well, I think you’ve answered your own question, given you say she has actually written a Ph.D researching some problem in Physiology, which she completed after a 4 years Honours degree in science.
Whether she subsequently spends her time as a butcher or candlestick maker is irrelevant.
This is clearly not a case like O’Donohue.
And as far as I am aware, medical physicians have been known as “doctor” since at least the 12th century.
Doctorates have been devalued worldwide, not only by awards for fame, (it can’t be long before Paris Hilton gets one), but by the advent of doctorates by coursework: e.g. Doctorates of Business Administration.
An honorary doctorate of letters for a major author is one of the few honorary degrees that is defensible (pun intended) imho, because there is at least a significant body of work that is novel.
Being a Doctor of Philosophy can cause problems. My father was listed in the phone book as “Dr”. A woman called once and asked if he could take out her stitches. He explained that he was not a medical doctor, but held a doctorate in chemistry. She was desperate to get those stitches out, and tried to persuade him to take them out anyway…naturally, he refused point blank.
The thing I’m looking forward to when I finish my PhD is that technically, my husband and I will be “Dr and Dr”.
Oh yeah, the other thing I’m really looking forward to is NOT HAVING THIS BLOODY MILLSTONE OF A PhD AROUND MY NECK.
Oh Dave, what a “Dad joke”!
You’d get on well with my Dad…
LE
Well in the US, attorneys technically have the right to be called “Doctor” as their equivalent of our LL.B is the J.D. (juris doctor)
LE @ 20. Me too me too me too. And we’ll be Dr & Dr too, Have you ever seen that ep of Fawlty Towers in which a married couple, both doctors, try to check in? It’s very funny.
There you go, you think that you don’t really mind the Queen, respecting stability and hard work and all and so by stealth you come to think that royalty must , surely, have some things going for it. But, having worked for my bar admission the old fashioned way, I’ll be beggered if I’ll agree to Willy getting his willy nilly! Of course, royalty doesn’t need my, or anyone’s agreement: suddenly i begin to see the republican point.
And as for Princess Diana, I’m with you Legal Eagle, how could they?
By the by, I was admitted in Newcastle, part of the very Chambers that His Honour McHugh’s first practised in. I’m told it was accepted practice in Newcastle to work and study through the Solicitors/Barristers Board rather than go to Uni. Rumour has it that practising in a working class parochial town almost sent him broke, dare I say it: pearls before swine, and he had to go to Sydney to gain fame and fortune, which,of course, he did.
JG@ 16, it can cause a lot of problems, being a working nurse with a doctorate, though. Very confusing for many. In a shop once I had a slight accident and the staff were faffing around. Sandra took charge, and I said “Do what she says; she’s a nurse.” They did. Fast forward fifteen minutes and she’s at the counter with her credit card, and staff are looking accusingly at her: “Why did she say you were a nurse when you’re really a doctor?” Much worse on the ward, though.
And as far as I am aware, medical physicians have been known as “doctor” since at least the 12th century.
Except for surgical consultants who are still “mister”. (Or Miss/Ms/Mrs).
Yeah not a huge fan of honorary doctorates either, with a (possible) exception for a really distinguished writer with a substantial body of work (Dave’s point). Also, like DEM, I have a bit of time for Cameron, and also have a bit of time for the idea that people who are very wealthy (and thus less likely to rort the system) should ‘put in’ to society in some way, whether it be politics or philanthropy.
We seem to have lost the old ideas of noblesse oblige or pietas (which had nothing to do with religion in the Roman world and everything to do with public service).
Was it More who said that those who grasp for high public office with too much enthusiasm should be disqualified from holding it forever?
FFS. The UK should be so lucky to have its parliament filled with people educated to an Eton plus Oxford standard.
Rather than Affirmative-Action beneficiaries from Mt. Druitt High!
“Doctorates have been devalued worldwide, not only by awards for fame, (it can’t be long before Paris Hilton gets one), but by the advent of doctorates by coursework: e.g. Doctorates of Business Administration.”
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Actually, even with these you still need to do a substantial thesis. The thing that has devalued them is (a) time pressure — in Australia, for example, the money you get from the government for a finished PhD slides over time; (b) the push by governments to force universities to award more; (c) the publishing of “PhD” completed statistics; (d) people needing lab slaves; (e) people needing kudos for getting students through (there are often more PhD students than academics in many even shitty departments now); and (f) no real adjudicators of standards, so anyone can and will pass, especially if you send the thesis to your friends to mark (who will no doubt do you the favor back, so you will get to read some shitty thesis too)
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I note that even Cambridge had to lower their standards a couple of years ago. I remember them changing some wording that initially meant you were supposed to do something good and novel to having to produce a substantial body of work. That’s a huge difference. Now if Cambridge, who have the smartest students and uber high levels of funding have to do that, you can imagine what everyone else does.
Su – Sounds like you need a new dentist.
I haven’t had any time for honorary doctorates since J B-Petersen got one.
The only people who think the colonials should not elect their own head of state is a locally-grown vanguard of leftist Luvvies!
True. I knew the Republic was going down because I had two jobs when it was going on. One was very latte the other very VB. The VB crew thought it was a crock that we couldn’t vote in the president. The latte crew had no idea that anyone thought this way.
Thing is the VB crew being the usual ever vigilant and informed citzens that they are were under the impression that the Australian president would be like the American president.
Personally I reckon the Republic is inevitable. And I think we should take a looong time to design it. Because in the first place there’s a lot of new 21st century type problems in limiting state power and in the second I don’t want my country redesigned just so that Messrs Turnbull and Rudd can get their names in the history books. No sir!
But by the time King William III comes to visit he can pay his own bloody way.
Deus – yes, surgeons start out as doctors, study for twice as long, and are then given the honor of reverting to the titles of the common folk, along with being permitted to add many zeros to their invoices.
I gather this very dated, and now illogical, practice is confined to some Commonwealth countries, and has never been the case in places like the US, for example.
The types of study areas for which people in Oz can gain a PhD are, these days, so air headed, trite, asinine, vapid (and so on and so forth) it should be embarrassing to all parties, but evidently isn’t.
Perhaps to be fully expected though, given that getting an undergraduate degree long ago ceased to require, as a prerequisite, basic literacy or numeracy skills.
And yes, agree with everyone else: honorary awards are almost never appropriate.
Honorary barristers?!!
Good grief!
My sister met Ronald Reagan when she was doing a postdoc in the US. Amongst his many honorary degrees, including a fistul of Doctor of Laws, was an honarary Doctorate in Professional Football! When they’re awarding them to Presidents I suppose it is mostly about attracting patronage and funds for the university. Or flattering leaders for other purposes – Israeli Universities conferred quite a few of Reagan’s honararies.
“Also, I don’t think William went to Oxford either – he went St Andrews from recollection, which is a very good university – but he didn’t study Law or anything to do with Law.”
This is actually the mainstream path into the top law firms and sets at the Bar in London now. Although the UK has a plethora of excellent law schools, most recruits to top firms or sets must have a 1st or upper 2nd from Oxbridge. In any course. They are recruited PRIOR to completing a short hack-together course on legal fundamentals then enter their training periods.
The idea of meritocracy is an anathema to both the legal profession and the English generally. To make a massive generalisation, tonnes of exception clauses, etc, etc…
When I think of how hard I’m planning to work to become a barrister… just my bad luck I wasn’t born a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.
As for honorary degrees: my graduation ceremony was, as far as I’m concerned, completely ruined by the fact that at the same ceremony the powers-that-be bestowed an honorary degree on Michael Kirby. A: being the darling of the intellectual left in Australia, he didn’t need yet another accolade, and B: he’s my least favourite former High Court justice. Why did he have to crash MY graduation ceremony and make it all about him?
More of this ‘I paid it back when you caught me, so I’ve done nothing wrong’ rubbish from David Cameron.
It wasn’t an honest, careful claim ofn public money, so it was rorting or theft.
This is a bit OT, but not much, as it is about elitism.
Professor George Williams – Head Luvvie for non-constitutional Charter of Human Rights and ant-democracy Misanthrope – has now turned his spells to the judiciary. The good Prof challenges the way Australia’s judges are currently selected.
Does he suggest they should be elected to match the great moral/value/political nature of “human rights”? Quelle horreur! Not on your life, sweetie. No, he insists on an “independent” – isn’t everything in Australian governance nowadays – judicial selection committee.
Clearly, this “independent” judicial review committee will be a forum for giving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to Luvvies like him.
Next stop? Ban elections, eh George?
These people are creepy.
Actually, Cameron’s claim doesn’t seem to have been an outright rort, his few expenses errors seem genuine and minor (under £1000) and I’ve never understood why he repaid the single repair bill claimed on his second constituency home (wisteria removal, lighting and roof repair £680). The criticism is that it was possible to have arranged his mortgage matters to cost the taxpayer less and in the case of his Labour opponents that “rich blokes shouldn’t get expenses”. As someone who is not a stranger to the benefits system, I look forward to Gordon Brown’s obsession with means-testing being imported into the House of Commons in short order.
My PhD is an ethnographic study on doing a PhD at a research-intensive Uni in Australia, so I hope this isn’t too “air headed, trite, asinine, [or] vapid” for y’all.
My partner is a frequent examiner and she loses sleep over ‘shitty’ theses. She says that one of the worst things about examining is writing a report on a poor thesis submitted by a student who has clearly been inadequately supervised. It’s not the student’s fault but s/he is the one who will suffer.
“When I think of how hard I’m planning to work to become a barrister… just my bad luck I wasn’t born a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.”
Or a state or territory A-G, if you want silk. While righties may get hysterical about Gareth getting the title, it doesn’t get better than Shane Stone, who had misused files for political purposes if I remember correctly, and who had the intellect of a fine example of his surname.
Silk is another bizarre anti-competitive politically loaded mainstreaming appointment.
My 2c- end silks, end honourary doctorates, make it an act of misleading conduct to utilise either title in professional promotion.
If you want to prove you’re a hot barrister, produce a list of cases and publications. If you want a doctorate, pull your finger out and write a damn thesis.
End of rant.
JG, I’m not a fan of Judicial Appointment Committees, as I’ve said before. I suspect it’s all just window dressing, and it will be like those public service positions where they advertise, but the selection criteria are written with exactly one person in mind (guess who gets the gig?)
M-H – sounds interesting – particularly given that I’m “doing a PhD at a research-intensive Uni in Australia”… Perhaps I could be in your thesis!!!
Armagny – agreed, as I think I’ve discussed before. There are some bad silks out there.
Susan
I should not be too incensed at the injustice of Prince William being an honorary barrister. As I said the only people who should worry are those who hire solicitors who then brief Wills to represent them in court!
Still, I’d rather have Wills defend my DUI than Professor Dr. Lowitja O’Donohue operate on my pancreas!
As I said the only people who should worry are those who hire solicitors who then brief Wills to represent them in court!
I think being a barrister makes you a member of a certain club that has a certain power irrespective of one’s abilities. William should not be entitled to become a barrister simply because he’s the Crown Prince’s crown prince. It’s a relic of feudalism.
Actually Adrien the reverse is the case. William should not be permitted to become a barrister becasue barristers are apllying HIS laws – the Crown’s. Will they next make him a KC – King’s Counsel? Why would royalty agree to such a bourgeois honorarium in the first place?
Will they next make him a KC – King’s Counsel?
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Considering his
inbred ineptitudeintellectual pedigree the British government should consider it a matter of national security that he not be able to keep his own counsel at any cost..
Sorry don’t like the Battenburgs. Ethnic rivalry. They keep wearing the Tartan and they’re a bunch of bloody Germans!
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If we had to have Germans why couldn;t we have talented ones?
Indeed. And the last of the Spencers who was much chop was the daughter of the 1st Earl who married the 5th Duke of Devonshire, thus becoming the inimitable Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire. The whole clan had become horridly bedint by the time the 8th Earl Spencer started reproducing.
Yeah. The whole system is based on the assumption that this people are gonna get wiped out on a regular basis. That’s not happening. As a result chinlessness is on the increase in the human species.
I might be wrong John, but I reckon you have an aristo festish.
Adrien
Actually, it’s called “having a clue”, period.
‘Personally I reckon the Republic is inevitable. And I think we should take a looong time to design it.’
Amen to that. I couldn’t believe last time how we were going to rush out this dandy republic that wouldn’t change anything at all of our largely unwritten system of government…my arse!
Then I worked out that we were only doing it this way because a) it gave Howard the best shot at defeating it, and b) the latte set were so happy to be doing something (‘really meaningful’)quickly that they didn’t notice (or perhaps were too stupid to notice in the first place) that they were getting stitched up.
Then I worked out that we were only doing it this way because a) it gave Howard the best shot at defeating it, and b) the latte set were so happy to be doing something (’really meaningful’)quickly that they didn’t notice (or perhaps were too stupid to notice in the first place) that they were getting stitched up.
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Indeed. Howard played that one brilliantly. And people like Turnbull couldn’t see the trees for their own ego.