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	<title>Comments on: Moral panic? What moral panic?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/</link>
	<description>Two lawyers and a larrikin on life, law and liberty.</description>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47947</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47947</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;By the way, my Mum had the best antidote to smoking – apart from insisting that it was gross and made you smell gross and made kissing you gross, she also agreed to give each of us $1000 if she found no evidence that we were smokers by the time we turned 18. She’d read that if you don’t smoke by the time you’re 18, you’re far less likely to take it up. Simple.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Right, I&#039;m nominating Miss Chelsea&#039;s mum for the Economics Nobel... a nuanced understanding of incentives, I think!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>By the way, my Mum had the best antidote to smoking – apart from insisting that it was gross and made you smell gross and made kissing you gross, she also agreed to give each of us $1000 if she found no evidence that we were smokers by the time we turned 18. She’d read that if you don’t smoke by the time you’re 18, you’re far less likely to take it up. Simple.</p></blockquote>
<p>Right, I&#8217;m nominating Miss Chelsea&#8217;s mum for the Economics Nobel&#8230; a nuanced understanding of incentives, I think!</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47941</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47941</guid>
		<description>I never became a smoker because I have seen the myriad health problems my grandparents suffered because of it. One of my grandpas died of a heart attack (former smoker, didn&#039;t look after his health or eat healthily). My other grandpa has had 3 heart attacks and numerous bypasses and stents everywhere. Also I&#039;m a chronic asthmatic - I have enough problems with breathing without complicating matters.

A teacher friend said that she had to teach &quot;zero tolerance&quot; to smoking, whereas other drugs were supposed to be approached with &quot;harm minimisation&quot; in mind. Slight lack of moral consistency?

Nonetheless, I&#039;m very pleased that smoking has been banned in most public places in Australia. I don&#039;t mind what other people choose to do to their own bodies, but when they make my lungs ill with their smoke, I get grumpy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never became a smoker because I have seen the myriad health problems my grandparents suffered because of it. One of my grandpas died of a heart attack (former smoker, didn&#8217;t look after his health or eat healthily). My other grandpa has had 3 heart attacks and numerous bypasses and stents everywhere. Also I&#8217;m a chronic asthmatic &#8211; I have enough problems with breathing without complicating matters.</p>
<p>A teacher friend said that she had to teach &#8220;zero tolerance&#8221; to smoking, whereas other drugs were supposed to be approached with &#8220;harm minimisation&#8221; in mind. Slight lack of moral consistency?</p>
<p>Nonetheless, I&#8217;m very pleased that smoking has been banned in most public places in Australia. I don&#8217;t mind what other people choose to do to their own bodies, but when they make my lungs ill with their smoke, I get grumpy.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Bath</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47919</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Bath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47919</guid>
		<description>DEM@11 = giggle.
SL@10 : The french laws are pretty recent.  I&#039;m suspecting there&#039;ll be Brussels action against them.

(And if anyone wants to see my thoughts on patents, &lt;a href=&quot;http://balneus.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/submission-made-to-gene-patents-inquiry/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my submission to the gene patents inquiry is a good start&lt;/a&gt;.  I&#039;d place maths in the discovery rather than the invention category.

And on reverse engineering good technology and patents?  You cannot go past &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ipmenu.com/archive/AUI_2001100012.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Australian Innovation Patent for a Circular Transportation Facilitation Device&lt;/a&gt; (something that might give DEM inspiration).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DEM@11 = giggle.<br />
SL@10 : The french laws are pretty recent.  I&#8217;m suspecting there&#8217;ll be Brussels action against them.</p>
<p>(And if anyone wants to see my thoughts on patents, <a href="http://balneus.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/submission-made-to-gene-patents-inquiry/" rel="nofollow">my submission to the gene patents inquiry is a good start</a>.  I&#8217;d place maths in the discovery rather than the invention category.</p>
<p>And on reverse engineering good technology and patents?  You cannot go past <a href="http://www.ipmenu.com/archive/AUI_2001100012.pdf" rel="nofollow">Australian Innovation Patent for a Circular Transportation Facilitation Device</a> (something that might give DEM inspiration).</p>
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		<title>By: Miss Chelsea</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47917</link>
		<dc:creator>Miss Chelsea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47917</guid>
		<description>And lilacsigil - the &quot;blame the victim&quot; approach to avoid responsibility is by no means new in social policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And lilacsigil &#8211; the &#8220;blame the victim&#8221; approach to avoid responsibility is by no means new in social policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Miss Chelsea</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47916</link>
		<dc:creator>Miss Chelsea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47916</guid>
		<description>er - apologies to Conrad, I must have skipped your comment, and couldn&#039;t have put it better myself</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>er &#8211; apologies to Conrad, I must have skipped your comment, and couldn&#8217;t have put it better myself</p>
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		<title>By: Miss Chelsea</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47915</link>
		<dc:creator>Miss Chelsea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47915</guid>
		<description>What REALLY REALLY bugs me is that the balance of risk is so out of whack... I mean people are driving their children to school in large out of fear of a miniscule risk to their safety, and thus putting them in far more immediate risk from large cars running them over, not to mention the almost certain risks from insufficient physical activity. 

And we subject children to (relatively ineffective) scare campaigns to reduce the (relatively small) risk of drug use, and provide them with perfect conditions for mental health problems like severe anxiety.

A young relative of mine was recently in tears because her parents were &quot;going to die&quot; because they &quot;drink and smoke and do drugs&quot;. It&#039;s just inhumane, I&#039;m going to be objecting if anyone tries that on my kids. F*ck life education, it&#039;s just evil.

By the way, my Mum had the best antidote to smoking - apart from insisting that it was gross and made you smell gross and made kissing you gross, she also agreed to give each of us $1000 if she found no evidence that we were smokers by the time we turned 18. She&#039;d read that if you don&#039;t smoke by the time you&#039;re 18, you&#039;re far less likely to take it up. Simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What REALLY REALLY bugs me is that the balance of risk is so out of whack&#8230; I mean people are driving their children to school in large out of fear of a miniscule risk to their safety, and thus putting them in far more immediate risk from large cars running them over, not to mention the almost certain risks from insufficient physical activity. </p>
<p>And we subject children to (relatively ineffective) scare campaigns to reduce the (relatively small) risk of drug use, and provide them with perfect conditions for mental health problems like severe anxiety.</p>
<p>A young relative of mine was recently in tears because her parents were &#8220;going to die&#8221; because they &#8220;drink and smoke and do drugs&#8221;. It&#8217;s just inhumane, I&#8217;m going to be objecting if anyone tries that on my kids. F*ck life education, it&#8217;s just evil.</p>
<p>By the way, my Mum had the best antidote to smoking &#8211; apart from insisting that it was gross and made you smell gross and made kissing you gross, she also agreed to give each of us $1000 if she found no evidence that we were smokers by the time we turned 18. She&#8217;d read that if you don&#8217;t smoke by the time you&#8217;re 18, you&#8217;re far less likely to take it up. Simple.</p>
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		<title>By: DeusExMacintosh</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47907</link>
		<dc:creator>DeusExMacintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47907</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;yes, we’re probably going to go back to the days of companies and govts spying on each other or trying to reverse engineer good technology&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Uh, we never actually left those days behind. The beef is now that with a bit of research and a $1000/£500 home computer individuals can do it too and that&#039;s just PATENTLY unacceptable!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>yes, we’re probably going to go back to the days of companies and govts spying on each other or trying to reverse engineer good technology</p></blockquote>
<p>Uh, we never actually left those days behind. The beef is now that with a bit of research and a $1000/£500 home computer individuals can do it too and that&#8217;s just PATENTLY unacceptable!</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47904</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47904</guid>
		<description>Dave, it&#039;s in the realm of unenforceable law. Quite a lot of laws are like that, and it&#039;s why they should be repealed forthwith. I know it is difficult to grasp, but just because a law is passed does not mean it is honoured in anything other than the breach. Drug laws are the classic example (and are the principle reason why we are so overpoliced; the law doesn&#039;t work, so all legislatures can do to attempt to enforce an unworkable law is throw money and warm bodies at it).

The various internet filesharing laws are classic examples of the type. If you&#039;re really interested, hop on the relevant French government website and see if you can find them admitting to how many prosecutions they&#039;ve brought. Then express that as a percentage of the French population, controlling for those unlikely to be filesharing (the elderly, for example).

I don&#039;t like these laws either, but only partly because I think that the heyday of intellectual property protection may well be over (yes, we&#039;re probably going to go back to the days of companies and govts spying on each other or trying to reverse engineer good technology). I mainly dislike them because they are attempts to use the law in ways for which it is ill-suited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, it&#8217;s in the realm of unenforceable law. Quite a lot of laws are like that, and it&#8217;s why they should be repealed forthwith. I know it is difficult to grasp, but just because a law is passed does not mean it is honoured in anything other than the breach. Drug laws are the classic example (and are the principle reason why we are so overpoliced; the law doesn&#8217;t work, so all legislatures can do to attempt to enforce an unworkable law is throw money and warm bodies at it).</p>
<p>The various internet filesharing laws are classic examples of the type. If you&#8217;re really interested, hop on the relevant French government website and see if you can find them admitting to how many prosecutions they&#8217;ve brought. Then express that as a percentage of the French population, controlling for those unlikely to be filesharing (the elderly, for example).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t like these laws either, but only partly because I think that the heyday of intellectual property protection may well be over (yes, we&#8217;re probably going to go back to the days of companies and govts spying on each other or trying to reverse engineer good technology). I mainly dislike them because they are attempts to use the law in ways for which it is ill-suited.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Bath</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47902</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Bath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47902</guid>
		<description>sl@8 said &quot;It’s gone nowhere, fast, because they haven’t been able to get anyone outside their own charmed circle on board.&quot;
That suggests that legislatures are in the charmed circle given the fairly strong measures around the world against fileswappers... especially in France.  These measures include three ACCUSATIONS and your internet is cut in a measure in NZ (which I think was implemented and then unimplemented after massive protest)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sl@8 said &#8220;It’s gone nowhere, fast, because they haven’t been able to get anyone outside their own charmed circle on board.&#8221;<br />
That suggests that legislatures are in the charmed circle given the fairly strong measures around the world against fileswappers&#8230; especially in France.  These measures include three ACCUSATIONS and your internet is cut in a measure in NZ (which I think was implemented and then unimplemented after massive protest)</p>
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		<title>By: skepticlawyer</title>
		<link>http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/11/03/moral-panic-what-moral-panic/comment-page-1/#comment-47901</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticlawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticlawyer.com.au/?p=2947#comment-47901</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d read Dawkins&#039;s comments in context, Mel, for the simple reason that it places him in the rather unusual position of defending the Catholic Church (yes, you read right). Among other things, he points out that the survivors of common or garden physical abuse (which was much more destructive, and more sustained) have received not a skerrick in compensation. It is an interesting argument and not one that I&#039;d heard before, but the data backs him up.

Also, most people do not know that detail about smokers and are flummoxed when told (one of my tutors for the BCL helped produce the original research showing that smokers cark it young, thereby saving us money). He has been consistently amazed by this lack of awareness.

And, as I pointed out by tagging the post &#039;media&#039;, the moral panic in this case may start with the state, but it grows no legs unless the media pick it up and run with it. Dave&#039;s example of the strong desire among corporates (in this case) to produce a moral panic about downloaders and file sharers is a good one. It&#039;s gone nowhere, fast, because they haven&#039;t been able to get anyone outside their own charmed circle on board.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d read Dawkins&#8217;s comments in context, Mel, for the simple reason that it places him in the rather unusual position of defending the Catholic Church (yes, you read right). Among other things, he points out that the survivors of common or garden physical abuse (which was much more destructive, and more sustained) have received not a skerrick in compensation. It is an interesting argument and not one that I&#8217;d heard before, but the data backs him up.</p>
<p>Also, most people do not know that detail about smokers and are flummoxed when told (one of my tutors for the BCL helped produce the original research showing that smokers cark it young, thereby saving us money). He has been consistently amazed by this lack of awareness.</p>
<p>And, as I pointed out by tagging the post &#8216;media&#8217;, the moral panic in this case may start with the state, but it grows no legs unless the media pick it up and run with it. Dave&#8217;s example of the strong desire among corporates (in this case) to produce a moral panic about downloaders and file sharers is a good one. It&#8217;s gone nowhere, fast, because they haven&#8217;t been able to get anyone outside their own charmed circle on board.</p>
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