Been there, done that, got the Kippah

By DeusExMacintosh










33 Comments

  1. Posted June 4, 2010 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Really the start, as you’ve well alluded to. Even if I were more of an Israeli sympathiser in this hideous, intractable debate, I would be concerned that they’ve virtually snookered themselves. More boats are coming, what will Israel do? Hamas might be hideous but we all know democratic peace theory is highly flawed, they are popular, they must be negotiated with on some level even if they are not liked or trusted.

    That said, and to offer a bit of cynicism to the beleagered Israelis, It’s not as if Australia would ever send armed commandos to board a boat full of unarmed civilians, is it?

  2. Posted June 4, 2010 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    That said, and to offer a bit of cynicism to the beleagered Israelis, It’s not as if Australia would ever send armed commandos to board a boat full of unarmed civilians, is it?

    Well, quite.

  3. Posted June 4, 2010 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    I think that future boats will just meekly heave too when asked and allow themselves to be boarded.

  4. Patrick
    Posted June 4, 2010 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    I think they should have just blown the stupid boats out of the water and then apologised profusely and sacked a couple of people.

    That could hardly have attracted more opprobrium than the poor sods are getting now, and would have sent a much clearer message to the next bunch of useful idiots.

  5. Posted June 4, 2010 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    Yes LE they clearly want trouble but Israel has mounted the argument that its actions were sadly necessary because its soldiers were attacked by the so called “peaceful” protesters.

    Well “peaceful protesters” who consistently and violently resist are quite rightly described as rioters and as someone has pointed out at my place if people who claim to be neutral act with violence against either side then they invalidate their claims of neutrality and become combatants themselves.

  6. Posted June 4, 2010 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    The photo-cartoon strip is quite cute!

  7. Posted June 4, 2010 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Brilliant! 🙂

    You’ve outdone yourself. Had a good laugh over this one.

  8. Posted June 4, 2010 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    I feel quite sorry for Rahm Emmanuel…

    “I went to Jerusalem for my son’s barmitzvah, and all I got was this lousy international crisis”

  9. Peter Patton
    Posted June 5, 2010 at 4:54 am | Permalink

    My only sincere concern in all of this is trying to calculate just how much of a diplomatic fiasco it is for the Israelis, and how durable it will be.

    I am quite sincere when I say I couldn’t really care if the ‘peace activists’ were all blown to kingdom come. There are far, far too many people on earth. Jolly decent of this flotilla to volunteer to be the first to try to ease the population issue.

  10. Posted June 5, 2010 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded

    There is some truth here 😉

  11. lomlate
    Posted June 5, 2010 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    I thought it might be worth pointing out that a major reason the activists are trying to ‘create an issue’ or whatever is because the media really isn’t interested in the suffering of actual palestinians.

    I see it as highlighting the injustice that is already occurring, rather than trying to force israel to create more injustices.

  12. Peter Patton
    Posted June 5, 2010 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    DEM

    This is one of your masterpieces. Never have so few words shown that the web we weave is anything but tangled. scrolling down your post, it becomes just bloody obvious! 🙂

  13. Peter Patton
    Posted June 5, 2010 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    LE

    Unfortunately, those two things are myths:

    1. No borders ever got finalized in 1947/48, and never have since.

    2. No UN Mandate created Israel. Sure, the UNSCOP Report chose a final four scenarios. And sure, its preferred scenario was voted for by the UNGA. But nothing more than that was ever done by the UN to effect the partition?

    Why? Because the militaries of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Iraq, charged beyond their own borders with a beeline for Jerusalem.

    Why? With the collapse of the Ottoman empire, following its WWI defeat, the Islamic Caliphate was vacant. The resulting competition among the various Arab pretenders to the Caliphate was driven by three strategic imperatives:

    (i). Sole control of the Holy Places in Jerusalem. Whoever could achieve this, would instantly have a degree of legitimacy throughout not only the Arab world, but the whole Muslim world.

    (ii). Expansion of their current state borders, hopefully so their current state would be contiguous with Jerusalem.the imperial expansion of his territory.

    (iii). Under no circumstances was the UN’s planned extra Arab state in Palestine ever to see the light of day. To that end, the five Arab powers agreed in secret, not to provide the Palestinian Grand Mufti al-Husseini either any role in the planned military invasion, or any support for the rag-tag ‘army’ he had rustled up, and most importantly, he was to have no role in the ruling or administration of post-war Palestine.

    In fact, authority over the Palestinian Arabs was assumed by the Arab League (Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt) in 1945, effectively dissolving the al-Husseini’s Arab Higher Committee, while the Mufti was holed in Nazi Germany during WWII, shilling for Hitler via radio.

    Once the dust settled, and cease-fires agreed. King Abdullah had succeeded in capturing most of the territory west of the Jordan. This included the prize of at least a part of Jerusalem. Earlier in 1948, he had captured all of Jerusalem, with thousands of Jews help captive there. Egypt managed to conquer and hold Gaza.

    The other major change once the dust settled was that several hundred thousand Palestinian Arabs who had fled – or chased out of – what became Israel, were now either in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, the West Bank, or Gaza.

    The UN and Israel tried feverishly to get all the parties to shake hands, kiss and make up. None of the Arab states would recognize Israel, give up the territory they conquered, or attend UN arranged peace negotiations.

    Israel said, it would not budge, and none of the Arabs now outside Israel would be allowed to return until the five belligerent Arab States signed a peace treaty, which included their recognition that Israel was now a proper State.The Arabs refused everything.

    Eventually, the UN gave up. Israel was accepted as a member of the UNGA in 1949.

    And thus, here we are today.

  14. lomlate
    Posted June 5, 2010 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    I think your analysis of ‘goodies and badies’ is perfectly apt in this situation. Both parties are equally to blame.

    At the moment I’m doing my first semester of tort law. The concept of a duty of care has only been touched on briefly. Yet it strikes me that there is an analogy is very apt to the current situation.

    What is the duty of care owed by Israel, with a GDP of $28400, universities, first class hospitals, a first class military, to it’s neighbours?

    And what is the duty of care owed by the west bank, a place where the gdp is $2900, few people are properly educated and there is little access to medicines, universities or stable electricity for that matter, to it’s neighbours?

    I often get angry at America for things like Guantanamo bay not because I’m shocked people are treated like that. I’m sure that people are tortured all over the world. I’m shocked because I expect better of a country like America.

    Am I surprised that a child grows up in the gaza strip wanting to martyr himself? No. Am I surprised when Israel’s high precision military reacts with similar force? Yes. Am I surprised Hamas use human shields? no. Am I surprised the Israelis shoot at those shields? Yes. The palestinians make angry irrational decisions that arise out of their hopeless situation, resulting in a ‘tit’. What else do you expect them to do? Educated Israeli officials sit in airconditioned offices and proceed to ‘tat’. I expect better.

    And so it is with the flotilla. The protestors might have started it. They might have been doing something illegal. They may have attacked the IDF. But they had millions of dollars and months to plan their response. Their duty of care is greater than that I expect of a group of 30 men interrupted during prayer time to someone fast-roping onto their ship.

    Anyway, this is an intractable issue so obviously there’s no real point in even talking about it.

  15. lomlate
    Posted June 5, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    I think you’re completely right about Hamas. Israel should be doing everything it can to encourage moderates in the strip and not Hamas. Hamas only have the support of the people because they have absolutely no faith, no hope that there is a solution with Israel. It seems that many of the things Israel does are designed to prove Hamas right.

    Or let me put it a better way:

    “among the materials they consider dangerous are building supplies, which might be used, the Israeli authorities say, for constructing weapons. For instance, in the handmade missiles that were such a feature of the Hamas artillery, cement was used as ballast. On the other hand, people’s homes are destroyed, they are living in tents or under cardboard shelters, there’s a desperate humanitarian need to provide shelter, which is why cement and other building supplies are so urgently needed. As long as people are forced to live outside in handmade shelters with minimum daily calories and no work to do, radicalism will flourish.”

    It’s Israel’s responsibility to stop this. Right now they’re encouraging it. I no longer see Israel’s role as a negotiator in a two party struggle. They are the party that must come up with the solution. The people in tents certainly won’t. Anything else and Israel is shooting itself in the foot.

  16. lomlate
    Posted June 5, 2010 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    Oh and on an unrelated topic, what is this blockade over?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

    28 lives.

  17. Patrick
    Posted June 6, 2010 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    Iomlate, perhaps you are as young as you seem, and that’s why your last comment suggests that 28 lives does not merit a blockade.

    And of course, it is not only the 28 lives themselves at stake. It is the right of ordinary Israelis to live their lives much you like take for granted, free from the constant fear that you or one you love might, the next minute, at work, school, kindergarten or even at home, be killed by a terrorist attack.

    That seems like quite a lot to me.

  18. lomlate
    Posted June 6, 2010 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    I think you’re completely right. It is that vicious cycle. I’m just saying that I expect more of a free, democratic state like Israel than to blindly continue the cycle. If nothing else it’s against their long term self interest.

    I’m responding to Patrick only to say that I think it’s a shame he chose to personally attack me. I tend to focus on arguments, not the age of the person making them.

  19. Patrick
    Posted June 6, 2010 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Iomlate, I was focusing on your argument. To be specific, I was focusing on the immaturity of it. You might not have meant it that way, but it certainly read pretty poorly.

    For what it’s worth I have no idea how old you are apart from what you’ve written on this site under that name.

  20. AJ
    Posted June 7, 2010 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    “Everyone at school was surprised. “What’s your problem? It’s just the IRA Christmas bombings.” ”

    This seems like the healthier attitude to have.

    I don’t really see what Israel is accomplishing. With the current strategy, the only change I can see happening in the next 10 years is there will be an extra half million or so pissed off Palestinians living in Gaza.

  21. Posted June 7, 2010 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    AJ: If Hamas is not shooting rockets at Israel, the Israelis figure they are ahead.

  22. Posted June 8, 2010 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    “Everyone at school was surprised. “What’s your problem? It’s just the IRA Christmas bombings.”

    The British have a much healthier attitude to terrorism, I think. Still remember overhearing a conversation in a Welsh cafe on the day of the 7/7 bombings in London.

    “Who is it this time,” one asked. “The rag-heads or the bog-trotters?”

  23. Patrick
    Posted June 8, 2010 at 4:44 am | Permalink

    I’m not sure the British attitude to terrorism should be so inspiring to anyone. After all my Irish heritage and human-rights edjumakation leave me with the distinct sense that the British damn near invented the ‘disproportionate’ response.

    Or is it that our pommie-lovers here mean to suggest that Israel should try the Bloody Sunday approach at the next Hamas rally?

  24. Posted June 8, 2010 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    Um, Patrick, Israel already did. That’s kinda the point… of this funnie.

  25. Patrick
    Posted June 8, 2010 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    I agree with pretty much everything you just said LE, even if you are a treacherous mongrel..;)

    I think the biggest thing is the bit about the Palestinians having betrayed first Rabhin and then Barak. The real problem is not that they did but that the world let them, and almost encourages them too.

    As long as the UN, the EU and the other useful idiots keep up swallowing the Palestinian line that only the Israelis, as the ‘aggressor’, are able to change anything, then there will be no change.

    Sharon had started on unilateral disengagement and he was right. The Palestinian state that would have emerged out of a Sharon-led ‘unilateral peace’ process would have been a crippled and puny one, but such would have been the deserved fruits of the international community’s pernicious fostering of the Palestinian treachery and their sense of righteous victimhood.

    I think Israel is quite entitled to say that we have invested enough, and we will defend ourselves but let the Palestinians come forward and present a case for negotiation.

  26. Posted June 9, 2010 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    Maybe Israel/Palestine should go back to being an Italian colony… on the grounds that it was originally conquered by the Romans. If the EU is treated as a successor state to the Roman Empire, then maybe it has a good claim. (They already take part in Eurovision.)

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